17-10-2004 17:53									#181
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Ned, That still doesn't negate the point that Lincoln violated his oath of office and the US Constitution on multiple occasions, and upheld his edicts through military force.

Is that intended as a criticism?

	17-10-2004 17:55									#182
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO And he burns in hell with the blood of millions on his hands.

Plato, is this a joke? I normally agree with you on most points.

	17-10-2004 17:57									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Lincoln and special props to William Tecumseh Sherman for teaching the South, particularily Georgia, a lesson it would never forget oh and i dont get any resentment for Lincoln... yeah he betrayed the constitutional right to seceed from the union, but he did so because the south had completely trampled upon the more important right of human rights. you have no excuse, plato, dave, et al.

Sherman is not forgotten in the South. But, Sherman's march to the sea shows just how brutal the US can be in war. Un-f*ckinging-believeable. The last people anyone wants to take on in war are the US and for that matter Great Britain.

	17-10-2004 19:09									#184
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd That still doesn't negate the point that Lincoln violated his oath of office and the US Constitution on multiple occasions, and upheld his edicts through military force.

A giant SOOOOOO WHAAAAAAAAAT!

	17-10-2004 19:14									#185
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quote: Is that intended as a criticism?

quote: A giant SOOOOOO WHAAAAAAAAAT!

So you don't believe that the oath of office or Constitution matters? If Bush goes around violating both, it won't matter to you, if he has a good-sounding excuse?

Guys, there is NOTHING higher than the Constitution in our system. NOTHING. That's how the US was set up.

	17-10-2004 19:20									#186
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David, yes there is. The Union and the existence of United States of America itself are higher.

Clearly the president is the commander in chief. His primary obligation is to defend the United States. This gives him all the power necessary in times of grave peril, IMO.

	17-10-2004 20:25									#187
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So you don't believe that the oath of office or Constitution matters? If Bush goes around violating both, it won't matter to you, if he has a good-sounding excuse? Guys, there is NOTHING higher than the Constitution in our system. NOTHING. That's how the US was set up.

Yes there is. The Constitution is just a paper. Making the bad guys take it up the *** is higher.

	18-10-2004 03:22									#188
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Ned,

quote: David, yes there is. The Union and the existence of United States of America itself are higher.

But if the Constitution is ignored at will, then the United States as it was meant to be ceases to exist.

quote: Clearly the president is the commander in chief. His primary obligation is to defend the United States.

Wrong, his primary obligation is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

quote: This gives him all the power necessary in times of grave peril, IMO.

You may think so, but the Constitution does not allow a dictator to be appointed in time of need, like the Romans did.

Kid,

quote: The Constitution is just a paper. Making the bad guys take it up the *** is higher.

Really? So I assume you would have no problem torturing terrorists in concentration camps in the United States, then? Because after all, making the bad guys taking it up the ass is more important than the Constitution, and terrorists are certainly bad guys, right?

	18-10-2004 05:46									#189
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Hey DF don't forget about the other thread on the constitution and secessionism.

	18-10-2004 06:13									#190
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Guys, there is NOTHING higher than the Constitution in our system. NOTHING. That's how the US was set up.

I didn't realize that the USA was a theocracy.

	18-10-2004 06:22									#191
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO And he burns in hell with the blood of millions on his hands.

you're hilarious sometimes

	18-10-2004 10:08									#192
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Really? So I assume you would have no problem torturing terrorists in concentration camps in the United States, then? Because after all, making the bad guys taking it up the ass is more important than the Constitution, and terrorists are certainly bad guys, right?

I guess if I try to figure out your point you mean is it more important to catch the terrorists than it is to make sure that we follow the Constitution. My answer is yes.

	18-10-2004 10:10									#193
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd But if the Constitution is ignored at will, then the United States as it was meant to be ceases to exist.

	18-10-2004 12:33									#194
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quote: I guess if I try to figure out your point you mean is it more important to catch the terrorists than it is to make sure that we follow the Constitution. My answer is yes.

Then why do you oppose the Patriot Act?

Geronimo, I haven't forgotten - I'll get to it tomorrow, when I haven't been drinking, because I assume you want an intelligent response

	18-10-2004 12:39									#195
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Then why do you oppose the Patriot Act?

Not because of some sacred oath to the Constitution. That's for sure.

It probably has to do with the fact that the neocons scare the hell out of me. If it were another administration then I wouldn't be so concerned about it.

	18-10-2004 12:43									#196
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Well, you may not care about the Constitution, but that's irrelevant. The President takes an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, and the Constitution may not be violated by any branch of the government. That's reality. ***** all you want about it being a worthless scrap of paper, but face it - the Constitution is the final word.

	18-10-2004 20:12									#197
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David, you made a good point about the oath. But still, it is generally understood that the Supreme Court protects the Constitution while the president protects the United States.

	19-10-2004 08:34									#198
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Ned, But if the Constitution is ignored at will, then the United States as it was meant to be ceases to exist.

You mean like the milita clause of the Second Amendment?

	19-10-2004 10:14									#199
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, you may not care about the Constitution, but that's irrelevant. The President takes an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, and the Constitution may not be violated by any branch of the government. That's reality. ***** all you want about it being a worthless scrap of paper, but face it - the Constitution is the final word.

Oh no! Libertarians are telling me what is real!

No. Sorry DF. 1776 was a long time ago. Good riddins.

	19-10-2004 10:23									#200
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People who care so much more about principles than actual people really unnerve me...
Moral/constitutional principles are there to serve people not vice versa.

	19-10-2004 10:37									#201
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I wish more people cared for principles instead of bending what the mob wants.

	19-10-2004 10:38									#202
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Did you mean "bending to" or just "bending?"

	19-10-2004 11:01									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I wish more people cared for principles instead of bending what the mob wants.

But to the extent of DF? He's so principled it scares me.

	19-10-2004 13:13									#204
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Ned,

quote: David, you made a good point about the oath. But still, it is generally understood that the Supreme Court protects the Constitution while the president protects the United States.

Protecting the Constitution IS protecting the United States - not the physical territory perhaps, but something more important, and that's the ideas and principles on which the country was founded. When the Court rules an act unconstitutional, and the President tells them to shove it up their ass, I think that there is a very serious problem with that President.

Ted Striker,

quote: You mean like the milita clause of the Second Amendment?

We both know that the 2nd Amendment doesn't say "Only the organized militia may bear arms". Other than that, this is old ground that we've been over before, and to address the gun issue is to distract attention from the real issue.

Kid,

quote: Oh no! Libertarians are telling me what is real No. Sorry DF. 1776 was a long time ago. Good riddins.

So you're telling me that the Constitution was only valid in 1776? The Constitution wasn't even written then, dumbass.

Boshko,

quote: Moral/constitutional principles are there to serve people not vice versa.

Actually, the Constitution - and Constitutional principles - are mainly in place to restrict the federal government, and by doing so, prevent federal encroachments on individual rights (and in some cases, state encroachments).

quote: But to the extent of DF? He's so principled it scares me.

I actually take that as a compliment

	19-10-2004 17:42									#205
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quote: I actually take that as a compliment

From what I've gathered, you believe that there is no concievable scenario in which violating Libertarian priciples would be a good idea. That level of consistency is scary.

You make the upholding of principles the end instead of a means to an end, which seems very wrongheaded to me.

	19-10-2004 19:18									#206
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So you're telling me that the Constitution was only valid in 1776? The Constitution wasn't even written then, dumbass.

It was outdated already when it was written.

No that is what you call weasling out Imran.

quote: Actually, the Constitution - and Constitutional principles - are mainly in place to restrict the federal government, and by doing so, prevent federal encroachments on individual rights (and in some cases, state encroachments).

So what DF? No one cares about giving some individuals rights where it hurts others. Well only you and Imran. Well maybe a few others on Poly here.

	19-10-2004 19:21									#207
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Boshko,

Don't be afraid. The only way the Libertarians could hold power in history was when they made it so only white male property owners could vote. Their time in history is over, save for a military coup.

	19-10-2004 19:29									#208
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I'm scared on a personal level, not on a political. A movement so thoroughly unpragmatic as the Libertarians doesn't stand much of a chance of success.

	19-10-2004 19:34									#209
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Yeah, it's kind of scary like that. It's about as wacked as national socialism. In fact I think when their free market fails a lot of these guys will turn to fascism. What else can they do? They do kind of scare you on a personal level.

	19-10-2004 22:54									#210
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Seeing as how the only arguments advanced since I last posted are "you're wrong" and "you're stupid", I really have nothing to respond to. Hence the