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Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:21
  Old Post 19-10-2004 23:15 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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No one called you stupid. We said that putting priciples above people was a bad thing.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:21
  Old Post 19-10-2004 23:19 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd


Seeing as how the only arguments advanced since I last posted are "you're wrong" and "you're stupid", I really have nothing to respond to. Hence the



You're acting stupid for mistakenly thinking people were calling you stupid.

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
Prince

Jan 2003
time: 00:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 00:53
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I've been off line for a few days.

I grudgingly have to agree with DF. Governments are systems, and the constitution, for all it's flaws, is a system that by and large works, while being able to adjust positively to what is going on in the world. It lags, and still cannot take the place of good leadership. But it definitely slows down the excesses of wrong leadership, that does not pay attention to the very system that protects it.

That is why Ben Franklin made his famous statement about those who prefer safety over liberty deserve neither. Coincidentally, I may not be the only person with this opinion. Supposedly O'Conner commented during the previous election that she wanted to retire duing a Republican Administration. Neither she nor any of the older conservative have. It may be sheer downright oneriness, or it may just be that they fear the kind of justices the neocons want appointed. Consider that, roll it around and taste it, and realize that DF has a legitimate point. Lincoln saved the United States, and along with FDR, Jackson, and this administration may have been one of the gravest threats to it's continued existance as a free nation. The Germans got it wrong in 1933, the Italians in the 1920's. Freedom is not guaranteed, and eventually we may not get so lucky.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 01:08 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
That is why Ben Franklin made his famous statement about those who prefer safety over liberty deserve neither.


BF said a lot of stupid crap, like 'a penny saved is a penny earned.' This seems kind of stupid, because safety seems like a legitimate trade off for liberty is some cases.

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


BF said a lot of stupid crap, like 'a penny saved is a penny earned.' This seems kind of stupid, because safety seems like a legitimate trade off for liberty is some cases.


If you are sacrificing freedom for safety you are ultimately making yourself less safe from a power a great deal more dangerous than any terrorist. I'd consider limited sacrifices of my personal secrecy for safety of myself and others but if I were to go much further and start entitling the government to run my life and infringe on my freedom what use will my safety be? BF was right on that one.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


BF said a lot of stupid crap, like 'a penny saved is a penny earned.' This seems kind of stupid, because safety seems like a legitimate trade off for liberty is some cases.


Two great quotes, and you think they're stupid!

-Arrian

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 02:47 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Geronimo


If you are sacrificing freedom for safety you are ultimately making yourself less safe from a power a great deal more dangerous than any terrorist. I'd consider limited sacrifices of my personal secrecy for safety of myself and others but if I were to go much further and start entitling the government to run my life and infringe on my freedom what use will my safety be? BF was right on that one.


The British threatened the safety of the colonists? No, the British govt protected them. They merely wanted compensation for it. BF was a propaganda genious. His propaganda sticks with us even though it makes less sense today. The fact is that we do trade off liberty for security. That's the whole basis of law.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 02:48
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Got spare money?

The colonies were not represented in Parliament, and disagreed that Parliament had any authority over them. They believe all authority over them came from the colonial governments.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 03:11 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The colonies were not represented in Parliament, and disagreed that Parliament had any authority over them. They believe all authority over them came from the colonial governments.


What does that have to do with their safety?

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 08:24 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd

Ted Striker,



We both know that the 2nd Amendment doesn't say "Only the organized militia may bear arms". Other than that, this is old ground that we've been over before, and to address the gun issue is to distract attention from the real issue.


Yes, and we all know that the Constitution can be interpreted, and that clause is the most important part of the amendment, it's in there for a reason. So it's not a distraction at all, if we were to strictly interpret the constitution only militia members should be able to have guns.

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
King
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 10:20 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
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quote:
and that clause is the most important part of the amendment,


Not according to the English language.

quote:
if we were to strictly interpret the constitution only militia members should be able to have guns.


That's not what it says at all.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 10:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
What does that have to do with their safety?


The British came in a defended the colonies, and then demanded money in return. It's just protection money.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 10:38 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd


Not according to the English language.



That's not what it says at all.


According to your interpretation.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 12:30 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker


The British came in a defended the colonies, and then demanded money in return. It's just protection money.


Protection money like extortion?

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
King
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 13:29 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
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quote:
According to your interpretation.


Not really - get an English textbook.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 17:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Protection money like extortion?


Exactly.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 18:53 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The colonies were not represented in Parliament, and disagreed that Parliament had any authority over them. They believe all authority over them came from the colonial governments.



It might not have been full, fair representation, but I do believe Benjamin Franklin went to London in the 1760s and 1770s as a representative not only for Pennsylvania in the British Parliament, but also for several other colonies.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 19:20 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Exactly.


Exactly bullshit. They taxed the colonies.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:21
  Old Post 20-10-2004 21:04
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They gave their "protection" in return for compelling the colonies to pay taxes when they had no representation in Parliament. The colonies thought that only the colonial assemblies had the right to tax the colonies.

It was as if we went and liberated France from Nazi Germany in WWII, and then imposed a national income tax on them.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 00:10 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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So even though Benjie was a colonial representative in the parliament, it was not true representation?

Moral Hazard is offline Moral Hazard
King
of jack
Jul 1999
time: 01:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 00:15
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Do we tax Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa. If so it's the same thing. Of course we'd be glad to get rid of them

No one answered my initial question. Did the french use any legal excuse to help the colonies?

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 08:31 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd


Not really - get an English textbook.


Has nothing to do with an English textbook.

And more to do with your own personal beliefs and biases.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 08:45
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quote:
that clause is the most important part of the amendment


It isn't. It's obviously the dependant clause, which makes it less important than the other clause (ie, the independant clause).

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 08:57 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Cool! Let's just ignore it then!

If it wasn't important it wouldn't be in there.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 09:39
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It's function is as of an explanitory clause. Hell, if the preamble to the Constitution wasn't important it wouldn't be there, but we don't use it for anything.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:21
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Explanatory clause!

That's the whole point!!!!!!!!!!!!

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
King
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 10:29 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
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quote:
Hell, if the preamble to the Constitution wasn't important it wouldn't be there, but we don't use it for anything.


Except, apparently, in Texas vs. White.

TS,

quote:
Explanatory clause!

That's the whole point!!!!!!!!!!!!


Really? So you admit, then, that the 2nd Amendment DOES protect the individual right to bear arms?

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 10:36 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Do we tax Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa. If so it's the same thing. Of course we'd be glad to get rid of them


We tax youth under 18 too....


What is the topic here?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 10:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Explanatory clause!

That's the whole point!!!!!!!!!!!!


So you admit that the clause was to protect the individual right to bear arms and the reason they wanted that protection because they believed an armed populace (militia back then meaning all men from 18-60) was a good idea?

The important part is the individual right to bear arms. The militia part isn't as important anymore because the federal government took over the militia (though if you want to argue that is unconstitutional).

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
King
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:21
  Old Post 21-10-2004 10:48 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
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When Imran and I agree on something, we're probably right, Ted

 
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