16-10-2004 00:31									#1
	The Regent -> Monarch jump Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I was stuck on Monarch for the longest time, winning maybe 25% of them... until recently.

I bumped into Ducki's thread about his Emperor game when I started reading about the 4 settler pump, which ran into many other things that could improve my game. Im not much of a number cruncher and I dont like micromanaging half as much as most of you - but I have realised the importance of it, which is good!

I thought Id just write down the things that helped me most to give me the edge on winning Monarch game from now on:

1- place your cities closer together. i never did this before, i always tried to maximize city tiles without wasting any (ie. 19-21 tiles per city). This, it seems, is a bad idea. One b/c its not neccessary, and two, b/c the corruption that it envokes is nasty!

2- the 4 turn settler pump & the 2 turn worker pump. which for me is a 2tsp and a 1twp b/c I play with xcellerated production, which im wondering if the majority of players do or not, why would/wouldnt you? as an agricultural civ I think you need 2 food improved tiles (ie. wheat or cattle), im still new to all this so i could be off, then pump out the settlers and rex yourself into heaven.

3- indentify your power tiles. dont waste time mining a grassland in the early stages when theres a resource enhanced grassland beside it. head for those wheat and cattle squares first, build road on the way as to not waste another move going back. plus, dont cut down trees at random, they are more powerful than they look!

4- granaries in a couple of key cities. these would be the cities that will be dedicated to settler and worker pumps. before reading ducki's thread id never built a granary before, i just didnt think it was useful to quickly get to a city size 6 and then hit the brakes. now i can see that you need them to pump, plus being next to a river and the brakes are used till youre a 12 size so you get a lot more use from them.

5- use the luxury slider! ive never, ever used it before reading ducki's thread either. i figured it was better that an entertianer keep them happy than lower your science, but now i can see that have those fields being worked is much more important!

6- draft citizens from cities that arent growing/growing slowly, and use them to hurry city improvements in other cities.

i guess thats about all ive learned, ive played a couple of Monarch games since learning it and Ive won, or if i didnt finish the game, i was leading in tech, money, research etc. reasons for not finishing games are usually b/c i dont get horses, oil, rubber. one of the games i won by space race, i had to go and capture an english city with rubber just so i could finish the last SS piece (forget the name). and i took me so long to go get it that i only won by a few turns.

questions:

do you use xcellerated production? why or why not?

how do you use your specialists at the end of the game, do you micromanage them all?

anyways, i think im starting to ramble, so if you can think of anything you do to improve your Monarch game please share.

PS: first game after using these new strategies (notice the riflemen too, i never got rubber till 2 turns before the end of the game, nobody had it for trade either)

Last edited by Shr3dZ on 20-10-2004 at 03:45

	17-10-2004 06:30									#2
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I never use AP. Firstly, it's unbalancing.....growth rate is too fast, and you therefore need a lot more workers to ensure your tile improvements keep up with your growth. Secondly, the AI doesn't really understand the differeces and so is not as good at AP.

Also, the tech rate is too fast, which means certain units become obsolete before you can get much use out of them, and it really curtails the usefulness of certain wonders (once in a PBEM game using AP I built Knights Templar and got 2 Crusaders out before it became obsolete!).

I think you will find that most players do not use AP. And if you do use it regularly, I imagine it would be pretty difficult going back to normal if you are trying to compare your game against someone else's.

	17-10-2004 07:48									#3
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BTW, if you really do prefer AP, I get the sense that a number of the MP players have more experience with it.

	17-10-2004 08:17									#4
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Yes, AP is ideal for MP.

That is pretty much what everyone uses for every game in MP over at the Ladder. It does help speed things up, though it does requier a different playstyle than most SP players are useful.

Most of what you learned in the thread is encompassed in my "Case for Food" article, but you may want to read it anyways, as there might be some other stuff you learn.

	17-10-2004 11:10									#5
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Oh dont worry Trip, I read all your articles, very good job indeed.

I first strated in Ducki's thread, then I start bouncing all over the place. The 4-settler pump, then to how 'food is power' and then to 'forestry', everything was helpful, plus it killed a lot of time while at work.

Hmmm, why would tech be faster when you have AP on since it only applies to resources and not trade? I may try my next game with AP off and see what happens...

What about my specialist question, do you guy micromanage them, making sure you have civil engineers, with maybe a couple cops, and an entertainer or something ? I think by default they all go towards entertianers, maybe b/c the AI likes to try for 'we love the __ day' or something...

	17-10-2004 18:23									#6
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Most of the time, AI seems to favor entertainers but I have seen instances in which AI defaults to using policemen, civil engineers, taxmen, and scientists. So I am not sure what kind of parameters AI is aiming for.

	17-10-2004 23:40									#7
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I've never seen the AI using policemen or civil enginners.

The AI sometimes uses all taxmen / all scientists if it can't work all tiles in the city raidus. In this case it's looking at the science rate:

0% : All taxmen
10 - 40% : All scientists
50% : Don't remember
60% - 90% : All taxmen
100% : Don't remember

These are never for happiness reasons, like a human would use for marginal unhappiness

	18-10-2004 22:32									#8
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Can someone give me a title or link to Ducki's thread that was referred to above? I do OK at Monarch but I am actually trying to tune my game for a step up and any little suggestion is useful.

Funny thing though, that there are a few basic things that are fundamental to having a succesful game, but each person has a slightly different way they manifest them.

I usually play the French because I like the money but I recently had a nice game with the Americans on my first attempt at playing them. But I had to do things entirely differently.

Anyway, thanks for any links.

Carlos

	18-10-2004 22:59									#9
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Sure np, heres the thread that started it all, for not just me:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=105424

Lots of pages, but theyre all pretty informative, and each one jumps to a different topic. Id say Ducki was the driver, but everytime he 'got it' he lost a lil control, hehe.

	18-10-2004 23:15									#10
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Thanks, Shr3dz. I searched on Ducki and got about a thousand hits!

Plus, as you said, it kills time at work.

Carlos

	19-10-2004 06:24									#11
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Hehe no doubt man.

Yea, I searched Ducki too and got like 6 pages of hits, luckily I knew the thread I was looking for.

G'd luck.

	19-10-2004 17:22									#12
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With me it depends: when there are few cities/units to manage i do it. I never bothered with setting up settler pumps altough i sometimes realise i made a 4turn pump. Worker-pumps i never made, i just let size6 cities build a worker. Once i get a huge empire i can't bother with the MM so i keep an eye on the 2 cores and that's it. The rest is on gouverner, and the workers on automate/no altering.
I almost never use specialists, i keep my cities rather small. I dont build hospitals btw. I really deteste pollution, since after u clean up u have to remember to reallocate the citizens.
Sometimes I build MTS and then hospitals, but only to get ennuf pop for a dom win.

Greetz

	19-10-2004 21:31									#13
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quote: I really deteste pollution, since after u clean up u have to remember to reallocate the citizens.

If you have governors on, it should auto-allocate...

	20-10-2004 03:43									#14
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I think Ill add another strategy to the top of my list, dont really know if anyone bothers with it though. Read it from a Aeson post, he was saying that you can draft citizens in the later game (from cities that arent growing anymore) and then disband them to hurry along improvements in other cities. Seems like it might be MMing a bit too much but with railroads and the 'continental rally point' it might not be so bad...

	20-10-2004 03:57									#15
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Rally points don't work for drafted units... but that said, I do this pretty often, especially if I have a very large empire. I will do this from cities at have pop 12 and significant excess food and before Hospitals. I also do it from any city that goes red (starving). It doesn't do much for high shield builds, but it works wonders for the basics.

	25-10-2004 19:46									#16
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After reading this thread and Ducki's, I tried altering my game to see if there is an improvement. I have been playing on Monarch recently and doing fairly well.

Twice now, I have been able to set up 5 turn settler pumps in Monarch games that I have played as the Americans. I have to admit that I won both of these games going away. Each time I went to SS but could easily have done Domination if I wanted to bother with the extra work. I was going for speed (real life).

The start was something like, Scout, Worker, Scout, Granary, Warrior, Settler. I pretty much flooded the area with settlements packed fairly tight - not ridiculously so. My second city became the build city.

Combine this with a research path to Philosophy, get a free GL and both times pop a SGL. Is that hard coded? Keep trading to pick up missing techs. I picked up Statue of Zeus both times fairly easily. That assures early game domination usually.

Each settlement goes warrior, worker, warrior and then maybe Temple (to spread out the area of control). Eventually the AI tries to check me - usually with the distant civ attacking through multiple layers of other civs - makes it tough to force peace. In the first game I had to face one KAI, the Greeks, and trouble from the Byzantines who blocked for them. In the second game I think the Hittites wanted to be KAI but I boxed/blocked them and the other countries could not build up.

Anyway, 5 turn pump is not elegant but more than enough to REX to a win on Monarch. I guess that I will have to step up. Of course, I have not needed to win without the pump. That will be more of a challenge.

Carlos

	25-10-2004 20:20									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Golden Bear Of course, I have not needed to win without the pump. That will be more of a challenge. Carlos

That is where the warrior/archer/horse/sword rushes come into play.

	25-10-2004 21:12									#18
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In the second game I referred to, I had horses but no iron. That made it a little tough when the Koreans came calling. But I found some iron a ways away, plopped a city on it, built roads through Ottoman territory and bingo! I had Swordsmen.

I tried to play the second game without conquest. But the Ottomans were really weak and the Japanese were weak and had wines. So I stretched the territory a little bit.

Carlos

	25-10-2004 21:25									#19
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Sounds like you've got the hang of it If you can run a 5-turn pump on Monarch, you will soon kill it so yep, Emperor soon, and then you've got your work cut out for you. With only one citizen born content, you must learn to use the luxury slider effectively.

Good to see your city placement is tight....how big can your cities grow? That's the important point

On build queues, I don't know that I would bother with Scouts (unless you're expansionist).

Don't count on the SGL's....it took me 6 months to get my first one!

I think over time you will probably learn to build less Temples, and getting your cultural expansion with Libraries instead. This goes hand in hand with learning to use the luxury slider.

Get on to Emperor and you will find plenty of people willing to give you more and more complex tips

	25-10-2004 23:28									#20
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Thanks, Aqualung. All good idea. I have not thought to do Library before Temple yet, except by accident.

I usually do University before Cathedral, though.

My cities can get up to the 17 to 21 range if I recall. I know that there are usually a couple near the borders that get squeezed and have troubles getting above 10 or 12.

It seems as if the Philosophy freebee usually leads to an SGL - at least is has for me 4 times in a row.

I am still wondering how I can get through a game without the AI spontaneously declaring war on me. In these last couple games I had clear superiority in Power and they jumped me anyway. In the first one, I was fighting the entire world at one point, without having ever violated a treaty or attacking anybody. I assume that it is just the huge points superiority that seems to go with the pump-driven hyper expansion.

Carlos

	26-10-2004 01:00									#21
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Uni before Cath is a function of difficulty level IMO. You will not be skipping caths above emperor in any city that could use a uni.

The SGL is going to be impacted by your traits and luck. I canot recall getting more than 1 sgl for Philo or its free tech. So if you are a Scientific civ you have a better chance.

Getting 4 in a row is so far out of my range of experience. I do not even always get one in a game at all.

As to being attack when at the top of the heap in stats, that is not uncommon. In the final analysis the AI will have few options, but to attack at some point.

I have had them declare when they were down to one tiny city and I had nearly the whole map. Their options are limited at that time.

	26-10-2004 02:42									#22
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Sounds good GB, Ive had similar issues.

I wonder what the point of extending your border by conquest is, the corruption is so high they are all useless cities. The only reasons I can think of for expansion is score , resources & slowing a civ down.

One other quesion i have is: In the game im playing right now I started in a good spot so as to block all AIs off from the majority of land and my empire is actually too big. I have 3 horses, 2 iron, 2 saltpeter, 2 coal & 1 rubber (& 4 lux.) - would there be any reason to trade my extra coal away? If I can stop a civ from building railroads that a major accomplishment right?

	26-10-2004 03:36									#23
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I have had them declare when they were down to one tiny city and I had nearly the whole map. Their options are limited at that time.

	26-10-2004 04:27									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Shr3dZ I have 3 horses, 2 iron, 2 saltpeter, 2 coal & 1 rubber (& 4 lux.) - would there be any reason to trade my extra coal away? If I can stop a civ from building railroads that a major accomplishment right?

I would not want to trade something as useful as coal to anyone, unless I was in a big need for something they had.

Coal/Oil an Al. are item I seldom trade. If you need to invade or attack them and they do not have rails, that is a good thing.

	26-10-2004 06:00									#25
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Cool, thats what I figured too. I know when I dont have coal my whole game is shot, or close to it.

	26-10-2004 17:00									#26
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actually not: the AI doesn't aknoledge the power of coal: u cant build military units with it. U can mostly trade it for a lux or so. It just demands a little bit planning to get it done in 20 turns .
It helps if the last turn of the trade u don't stack them, but give every single worker an own square to work.

Greetz

	26-10-2004 22:44									#27
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Yea I agree with that, you can trade for it at a reasonable price. I was partially refering to my last game where the AI had no coal for trade so I went the whole game without it.

Usually within the last few turns of having coal I set all my workers to start railing those last few dozen hills and mountians...

	28-10-2004 20:14									#28
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Just a tiny update. As we all suspected, I was just incredibly lucky. After 4 in a row, the next two games have produced no SGL after the Philosophy freebie. Too bad. I liked having the free GL or SoZ or whatever.

Carlos

	29-10-2004 01:48									#29
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Should i have my spacing between cities CxxC not CxxxC?

	29-10-2004 02:42									#30
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I started by trying the CxxC but realized I had a bit too much power in the beginning so now Im trying the CxxxC and it makes it a bit more even, plus less MM.