17-10-2004 19:20									#61
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I don't fear death. I just fear not completing what I've been put here to do before my time is up.

	17-10-2004 22:58									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker But you're an evil gay, so surely you're going to hell.

Huh? Excuse me?

	17-10-2004 23:07									#63
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I don't fear death. I'm not chomping at the bit to go, but I'm also not obsessing over the idea of physical death.

I don't believe in souldeath.

	18-10-2004 09:15									#64
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If you ask me, Chrisitians put way too much importance on the afterlife. Jesus made only a few references to hell, and they have often been mistranslated and they are very vague. Yet the whole point of the Christian religion is to be good in this life so we'll have a good afterlife.

I dislike this belief because I believe that God can be found here on earth. Life would be much better if we can connect with him and if we strive for true happiness. That would be heaven on earth, and I'd rather do that than spend my life trying to act moral for the possibility of going to a heaven. We don't know if it exists.

People of today are too concerned with dying, and it is proven that it is our greatest fear. A lot of it has to do with culture though. When we were hunter-gatherers, death was simply part of nature and its cycle. It was something that was accepted. Yet in our world today we live much longer but aren't nearly as ready for death as we were before. This is another product of civilization.

	19-10-2004 13:17									#65
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quote: So, as long as I accept Jesus, I can do whatever I want to without having to worry about hell?

No.

Go read Paul in Romans:

Romans 6:1-14

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

	19-10-2004 13:22									#66
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quote: Lutherans! You forgot Lurtherans!

They can stand for themselves. There's nothing special about their doctrine of justification, that needs to be set apart from the Calvinists.

	19-10-2004 13:24									#67
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quote: That seems to pretty well be an indictment of Protestantism.

An indictment of Luther, more like it.

Luther does not speak for all Protestants, and especially not for mennonites.

It's true that he had little love for James, because of the passages quoted by Verto.

	19-10-2004 13:27									#68
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quote: Lutherans believe that people who believe in Jesus and his message will be saved and go to heaven but they will deny that murderers actually believe in his message

Unrepentant murders perhaps. But not repentent ones.

	19-10-2004 13:30									#69
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quote: I don't like harp music so going to heaven as a christian must be hell og are there a chance to select indiviual instruments ?

It is a good question, of what will heaven be like. A better one than you probably suspect.

	19-10-2004 13:46									#70
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quote: If you ask me, Chrisitians put way too much importance on the afterlife. Jesus made only a few references to hell, and they have often been mistranslated and they are very vague. Yet the whole point of the Christian religion is to be good in this life so we'll have a good afterlife.

Why does Jesus teach the Parable of the Ten Virgins?

He closes it with the admonishment to be ready, for we do not know the day or the hour.

We spend so much time on the eternal fate of souls because Christ saw this as of primary importance. Christ's earthly mission centered upon this goal, even as he helped people here on Earth.

This I think we cannot forget, that the work we do here on Earth should assist others towards Christ so that they may be saved, either by opening their hearts to the presence of God through our good deeds, or through guidance and correction in making people aware of their brokenness.

There are many ways to accomplish the goal, but you cannot lose sight of the primary destination.

In fact, this is why Christ says, that he who gains his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life for me shall find it.

quote: I dislike this belief because I believe that God can be found here on earth. Life would be much better if we can connect with him and if we strive for true happiness.

All we have here are shadows of the real thing. You are right that we should strive for true happiness which we will only find in Heaven and not on Earth.

quote: That would be heaven on earth, and I'd rather do that than spend my life trying to act moral for the possibility of going to a heaven.

What good is it to temporarily alleviate suffering if it means condemning a soul to eternal suffering in Hell?

quote: People of today are too concerned with dying, and it is proven that it is our greatest fear.

quote: We don't know if it exists.

Perhaps this is why. People do not know what will come after death, or they fear they know all to well.

	19-10-2004 16:17									#71
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A man who had as speach in the youth club(Christian) I'm a part of, once spoke of heaven something like this:

What is heaven? How is it there?
Well, imagine the best and most enjoying things you can think of here on Earth. Multiply it with 1000. Multiply it again. And again. By now, you haven't been near what heaven is! It's much better than anything we can imagine! We don't know how it will be, but we do know it will be good!

	19-10-2004 16:32									#72
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I do not fear death. Though I do fear the fact that I have to leave my wife alone on this earth.
I don't want to die, because I don't want her to be alone.

The other reason that I do not want to die is that I want to see Christ coming, and I want to see what will happen to this earth during the latest days.
I want to see the antichrist, and in what form he comes, and if it comes close to what I imagine, or if I'm totally wrong.

I'm really looking forward to the afterlife. Or as a matter of fact, the real life. Living on earth as God intented it.
Living on a world in which the people allow God to be God, instead of themselves.

I do fear the moment of dying. Will it be painfull?
I do fear a long path to death.
And I have some fear in me, what if it's all wrong. And what if the atheists are right?

I can't imagine that people who believe that the death is the end are able to live. I would kill myself immediately, the moment I find out that God does not exist. But fortunatley I know that He does exist, so there's no reason for me to kill myself.
Live is worth the living!

	19-10-2004 17:57									#73
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Isn't it far more consistent that God (being the moral relativist he is (or rather has to be by my definition ) doesn't give a **** about what we do here, including such fickle things as belief, so Pascals bet is irrelevant and we'll all find out for sure when we kick the bucket anyway. Please say yes, otherwise I got a LOT of repenting to do

	19-10-2004 17:59									#74
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I don't recall not existing as being terribly unpleasant before I was born, I expect that no existing after I die won't be any worse. All worrying about it does is make the bit of time you have where you do exist that much more unpleasant.

	19-10-2004 18:44									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Isn't it far more consistent that God (being the moral relativist he is (or rather has to be by my definition ) doesn't give a **** about what we do here, including such fickle things as belief, so Pascals bet is irrelevant and we'll all find out for sure when we kick the bucket anyway. Please say yes, otherwise I got a LOT of repenting to do

The afterlife will be like the paradise.
Thus, we will live on earth in the way God intended it.

Since we ruined the original paradise by chosing to be god ourselves the new paradise can only consist of people who want God to be god and humans to be humans.

Thus, the 'wannabe-god-humans' must be re-created into 'wannabe-human-humans'
That's what God cares about.

The christian faith is not about earning the afterlife.
It's about giving up your "I'm the boss of my own life" attitude.
Because paradise can't be paradise of people have that attitude.

	19-10-2004 18:55									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko I don't recall not existing as being terribly unpleasant before I was born, I expect that no existing after I die won't be any worse. All worrying about it does is make the bit of time you have where you do exist that much more unpleasant.

	19-10-2004 19:13									#77
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The "not existing" part itself will most obviously not come with much problems.
But the period before it would scare me to death.
Cease to exist forever....

Besides that, since it doesn't matter if I would cease to exist today or tomorrow, why wait for tomorrow?

	19-10-2004 19:15									#78
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quote: Besides that, since it doesn't matter if I would cease to exist today or tomorrow, why wait for tomorrow?

Because I like living. Living is fun.

	19-10-2004 19:18									#79
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I fear the actual dying part - if possible, I'd like to avoid undue pain & suffering. Being dead, on the other hand, I don't fear. I expect nothing at all - oblivion.

-Arrian

	19-10-2004 19:45									#80
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I don't particularly fear the dying part either. Sure, I'd prefer it if it wasn't painful, but there isn't a whole lot I can do about that now.

	19-10-2004 20:54									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Because I like living. Living is fun.

I don't see the fun in knowing that every step brings you one step closer to eternal non-existance.

	19-10-2004 21:16									#82
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I don't see the fun in deluding myself, but to each his own.

I don't see the fun in pondering the supposed fact that I'm by my very nature a sinner and practically everything I do is wrong, according to some all-powerful being that can send me to eternal damnation if I piss it off too much.

Why dwell on morbid thoughts, anyway? I think death is simply the end of life. So why bother thinking about it at all, except making sure that your will is in order so your loved ones aren't screwed when you die?

-Arrian

	19-10-2004 21:40									#83
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I don't see the fun in knowing that every step brings you one step closer to eternal non-existance.

That makes no sense.

So when you're listening to a CD, all you can think of is the deafening silence when it ends? Or the great CD in the Sky that you can listen to after it, for that matter?

	19-10-2004 22:04									#84
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I don't see the fun in knowing that every step brings you one step closer to eternal non-existance.

So it would be imposible for you to enjoy a mortal life? I find that very strange. Today was a pretty good day (barring an annoying visa SNAFU that I'm trying to get straighened out) and tomorrow should be pretty good too. That's all I want.

	19-10-2004 23:48									#85
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quote: I don't see the fun in pondering the supposed fact that I'm by my very nature a sinner and practically everything I do is wrong, according to some all-powerful being that can send me to eternal damnation if I piss it off too much.

Neither do I. And fortunately I actually do not ponder that and neither do I have to ponder that.
Instead I can be happy about the fact that everything that's wrong in me and on earth will be renewed one day.

quote: Why dwell on morbid thoughts, anyway? I think death is simply the end of life. So why bother thinking about it at all

Because things that "you think" might not be true, pherhaps?
I would never dare to stop thinking about the sence of life, only because I have already formed my opinion on it.

quote: except making sure that your will is in order so your loved ones aren't screwed when you die?

Oh well, in 200 years your beloved ones are gone as well. In fact it doesn't matter what happens to them, if life does make no sence indeed.

There's no difference between dying today and dying tomorrow, from the perspective of the day after tomorrow.
And since it doesn't make any difference to me after I die as well, when life makes no sence, dying today makes no difference to dying tomorrow.

quote: So when you're listening to a CD, all you can think of is the deafening silence when it ends?

No, I believe life makes sence, so I can enjoy the good things of life, becuase I know they'll last forever and my life has everlasting value.

My body might be mortal, my soul isn't.
It's not for nothing that people claim that your true age is your mental age. And it's no surprise that to most people that mental age is young.

I can enjoy life, because I believe life makes sence.
I could not enjoy life if it would make no sence.
The fact that I would cease to exist forever would scare me to death everyday.

I would not cease to exist for 1000 years, 10000000 years or 100000^9999999999 years, but forever...

quote: So it would be imposible for you to enjoy a mortal life? I find that very strange.

Indeed.
Would you enjoy today if you know that you would die in a cruel painfull way tonight?

	19-10-2004 23:51									#86
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Christians should all fear death. They're all going to hell for not believing in Ahura Mazda!

	20-10-2004 00:19									#87
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or Brian for that matter

	20-10-2004 00:20									#88
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quote: Because things that "you think" might not be true, pherhaps?

Actually, that was the point I was trying to get across to you.

You said:

quote: I don't see the fun in knowing that every step brings you one step closer to eternal non-existance. .

The clear underlying assumption is that you *do* believe in an afterlife, and you think those of us who do *not* share your belief think "every step brings you one step closer to eternal non-existance."

That's YOUR take on it. I, on the other hand, am more interested in my life than my death. Since I think death is merely the end of life, there isn't much to think about, is there? I'm not saying I'll never re-examine my view of the afterlife, but rather I'm saying I don't bother thinking about dying much. That will probably change later in life.

-Arrian

	20-10-2004 00:23									#89
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Death is the only adventure you have left... - Hook

	20-10-2004 00:24									#90
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I don't fear death... I fear the method that I'm going to die. I'd hate to be shot, or stabbed, or in a bad car accident.

I'm also scared of taking my own life, even though I'm pretty suicidal. I have fears that if I do take my own life, it will be a sin and I will be punished. But having said that, I feel like I am being punished in life as well. Why else would I have such depression if not to punish me? Or maybe I'm a random occurance in the world and death is an infinitely long dreamless sleep. If that's the case, it won't matter if I take my own life.