17-10-2004 08:23									#1
	Which cities get granaries? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Obviously, the ones with 5 fpt, but of the other ones, do you want to build granaries in the ones with high production but low food, or the ones with high food low production?

	17-10-2004 08:30									#2
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Always high food.

You can use those to produce Workers to add to the slower-growing cities to increase their population so that they never need to grow.

With that in mind, adding Granaries to slow-growing cities is a waste of shields.

	17-10-2004 11:11									#3
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Only cities with a fresh water source, me thinks...

	17-10-2004 19:26									#4
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I usually put graneries in every city that has any growth at all...

	17-10-2004 19:46									#5
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All cities get granaries, except may be the total corrupt ones. The question is, which get granaries first. The high food cities, obviously. In my Civ3 days I built 2-3 granaries early on and used them as settler/worker factories. Even without a big food surplus a granary serves well for this purpose. All other productive cities get granaries as soon as the REX phase is over.

	17-10-2004 23:23									#6
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1. Cities with their own free aquaduct from fresh water, usally high priority.

2. Worker / Settler pumps, usally as the first (and sometimes only) improvement.

3. After building an Aquaduct, if I can fit a Granery in to finish one to three turns before the city will grow from 7 to 8 or from 8 to 9 I'll usually do so.

4. After buildig a Hospital, I'll time a Granery build to finish right before it grows from 13 to 14 on those that still don't have them.

quote: Originally posted by Shr3dZ Only cities with a fresh water source, me thinks...

	18-10-2004 02:30									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Always high food. You can use those to produce Workers to add to the slower-growing cities to increase their population so that they never need to grow. With that in mind, adding Granaries to slow-growing cities is a waste of shields.

I think Trip is assuming a rather specific kind of start, the one where you get a bonus Food resource or four within 3-4 tiles of your starting location. With those, I agree that it's better to put Granaries in those cities that will be exploiting said Food. But I would not chase a Food resource across the map just to try and build a Granary there that will take forever because of distance Corruption.

Granaries are good in slow-growing cities, too. In fact, they're essential on low-Food starts. Just look at AU503: Pillage and Plunder, for instance.

	18-10-2004 03:12									#8
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Yes, depends on your start. He asked about high food or low food so I'm assuming he was talking about a situation when you have both.

	18-10-2004 08:29									#9
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For me, it's the Settler/Worker Pumps that *must* have Granaries... other than that, it's sporadic, and way low on my priority list of builds.

Maybe it's an artifact of the time we've had playing C3 and derivatives: I want to achieve my 'win type' faster and faster, and Granaries just don't seem to be part of that.

	18-10-2004 20:45									#10
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cities with high food output are the first priority to get a granary.

all other cities must have granaries but not right away. If you want to remain competitive with the ai in the population category than granaries are a must.

	21-10-2004 06:19									#11
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Granery is usually my first imporvement in the capital when not Religious.

	21-10-2004 19:34									#12
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Cities with low corruption and fresh water.

fresh water to allow them to actually grow large.
Low corruption so that the lux slider keeps happiness up without needing significantly higher % than the smaller cities.

	21-10-2004 20:51									#13
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I hardly ever build more than a half dozen granaries, just in my key cities. But up until a couple weeks ago Id never built even one granary so what do I know.

I just think that after you finish REXing that its more beneficial to build up the temples/libraries/marketplaces rather than help those smaller cities rush to a city size 6 (by building a granary) just to wait there for me to finish those 3 things before they get an aqueduct.

Usually I get a chance to think once my cities are close to size 12, maybe then I should buy more granaries while they wait for sanitation...

	21-10-2004 21:47									#14
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quote: Originally posted by WackenOpenAir Cities with low corruption and fresh water.

There's also a case to be made for cities with high courruption. The only thing they can produce is food so you might as well take advantage of any high food surplus with a granary for a worker pump.

If the city has a 5 food surplus, you can pay 32 gold and pump out a worker every 2 turns. If there's only 4 food surplus, you pay 28 gold for a 3 turn worker pump.

The ideal time to buy that granary is around the time of railroad, when you simply can't get enough workers.

	22-10-2004 01:35									#15
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Good thoughts about granaries.

I think it is sound to build only in cities that have high growth during the early game but towards the late middle game it's time to start maxing out your cities pops with hospitals and granaries.

	22-10-2004 01:49									#16
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A city without an aquaduct (natural or city improvement) doesn't usually need a Granery.

A size 11/12 city without sanitation certaintely doesn't need one either.

quote: Originally posted by Shr3dZ I hardly ever build more than a half dozen granaries, just in my key cities. But up until a couple weeks ago Id never built even one granary so what do I know. I just think that after you finish REXing that its more beneficial to build up the temples/libraries/marketplaces rather than help those smaller cities rush to a city size 6 (by building a granary) just to wait there for me to finish those 3 things before they get an aqueduct. Usually I get a chance to think once my cities are close to size 12, maybe then I should buy more granaries while they wait for sanitation...

	27-10-2004 10:13									#17
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It would be wasteful NOT to place granaries in towns that are growing. Expansion is life, especially early in the game. Definitely place them in your settler/worker-pump towns. I don't use them as much at higher levels where I have to worry about the lower happy population limit.

	28-10-2004 01:19									#18
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Vince278, the luxury slider can let you grow cities large enough to benefit from granaries even on Emperor and above and even without luxuries.

I tend to build granaries in all or essentially all of my core cities very early, which does two things for me. First, it adds a bit to how many settlers and workers I can send out in my REX. And second, it positions the cities to grow more quickly once I'm finished REXing. Some cities have to wait for an aqueduct before they can use their granaries in expanding past size six, but even then, the granaries are ready when the cities are.

	28-10-2004 01:40									#19
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I've gone a different route from you, Nathan. I try to establish a worker pump city early on and just leave it pumping, and use the workers created from that city to handle just about all pop growth above size 7 (in core cities - conquered lands are typically over-irrigated until I can go and fix it, so those cities may grow on their own a bit after I've starved them down).

I don't always have an idea worker pump. To me, this is a city that can hit +5 food, but for whatever reason isn't a powerhouse production center and is also not the capital. The reason being, of course, that I find it difficult to leave a prime core city pumping workers for practically the entire game (until RRs, usually, when I can get some semi-corrupt conquered towns to do it instead). In that case, I too will build granaries in a bunch of core cities.

-Arrian

	28-10-2004 02:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The reason being, of course, that I find it difficult to leave a prime core city pumping workers for practically the entire game (until RRs, usually, when I can get some semi-corrupt conquered towns to do it instead). In that case, I too will build granaries in a bunch of core cities.

There's a way. Play militaristic and go get those slaves early. 2 per city could do, but you don't have to pay them, so take as many as you can. Start wars by capturing as many Workers and Settlers as possible, even delaying the beginning a turn or two, to get a better "catch". For example let a couple Settler teams into your territory before attacking, or wait until they start developing land in your attack path. And, since you will not REX as much preparing for war, the slaves/cities ratio can be extremely high for quite some time (until you make big conquests, to be exact).

I'm just in the middle ages with a 36-city Roman empire and almost completely developed land. Building forts and planting tundra forests now, as most mountain mines are long done. Did I mention that the empire had a peak of five native workers, of which all have now joined cities? Right now I counted "only" 53 slaves, because some were lost during the many wars. However, there was a time with 14 cities (of them, 5 were conquered), 35 slaves and 2 native workers (the first one was free, the second one an accident ). Worker pump? Phew.


Back on topic of Granaries. I build those in all cities with fresh water, period. Other cities get them only when they are designated Settler/Worker pumps. In general, the cities with Granaries are set to grow to size 12 ASAP (heavy use of luxury slider accouted for) or to pump Settlers/Workers. The cities without Granaries usually do units and only the cheaper infrastructure improvements, until the others are developed enough to start on units thmeselves. At this time the small cities build Aqueduct, then Granary, because the emptying of the food box at size 7 usually allows to finish the Granary just in time to fill it by hitting size 8.

	28-10-2004 02:30									#21
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Modo,

I do target settler teams (two slaves per!) and workers, as well as going after workers in trades whenever possible.

Slaves (in numbers) are great for free terrain development, no doubt. But they don't help with my other use for workers: adding them to cities to boost pop. I want native workers for that, and I need a LOT of them.

-Arrian

	28-10-2004 02:37									#22
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I see your point. I suppose I had a couple games in which even slaves could do the trick (yes, I mean adding them to cities to grow those), but that would be an exception. Too bad, I didn't keep the save of the crazy Chinese work camps. Imagine a line of slaves following a wide war front, and I mean many slaves per tile...

	28-10-2004 21:59									#23
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Using slaves to add to cities is tricky, though, because unless you've already wiped out the civ you got the slaves from, you have a potential happiness problem on your hands until they're assimilated.

-Arrian

	28-10-2004 22:04									#24
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Yes, but if you add only 2-4 per city and have good culture, they will usually assimilate fast enough. The tricky part, in my opinion, is having that many slaves. This is rare.


Just remembered another use for Granaries. Build them in conquered cities you are trying to keep without starving them down. The increased growth will soon make the foreigners a minority, thus greatly reducing the risk of a flip.

Last edited by Modo44 on 28-10-2004 at 22:12

	28-10-2004 22:14									#25
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I ALWAYS starve captured cities down, the only exception being if that civ is dead.

	28-10-2004 22:21									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I ALWAYS starve captured cities down, the only exception being if that civ is dead.

I didn't say it's optimal, did I? But I do find it more fun to take the risk and not starve them. A brand new Granary is a good thing to help me make that risk mamageable, is all I'm saying. And for all but the biggest culture powerhouses, it works just fine.

	28-10-2004 22:44									#27
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I'm like T. I know it's not strictly necessary, but I'm overcautious about culture flips. Captured cities go down to size1, unless the civ in question is dead or going to be in the next few turns.

I do, however, often rush granaries in captured cities to assist them in growing back up and/or to turn them into worker pumps.

-Arrian

	29-10-2004 00:56									#28
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I am in agreement with the drop them down to size 1 at deity or sid. Below that I am a bit more laxed.

I will drop it down to where all citizens arer happy at any level for large cities or metros. You then have to either watch it or not let it grow to ensure no happy issues.