19-10-2004 03:55									#1
	What the heck? Increase Your PM Length

Okay, I just signed a military alliance against America with Egypt. Then, we killed Amerca. The next turn, Egypt sent about twenty infantry right into my land, along with a couple tanks. Then, I ordered them to leave, and they declared war on me. What the heck is up with that?

	19-10-2004 04:11									#2
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It happens.

I've had a situation in the past where I signed a military alliance with Japan against the Ottomans. Two turns later Japan attacked me, while still in an alliance with me.

	19-10-2004 06:32									#3
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Your alliance died with the Americans, but even if it had not the IA will do RoP rapes and the like.

Remember that what ever your standing with Cleo was before the alliance, is back in force and will be worse if you did any taboo things, during the war. This could be razing cities and such.

	19-10-2004 07:44									#4
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The Iroquois did it to me, only with twice that many infantry, and some cavalry, and taking a mountain route. Thank the lord for railroads.

	19-10-2004 21:46									#5
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Maybe they noticed you were weaker after the war and decided to take advantage of it?

	19-10-2004 22:18									#6
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In general, asking to leave your territory is a ticket to war unless your military like 3 times larger.

There is one quirk with AI surprise attacks. Once AI "decided" to attack you it designate at least one unit to attack one of your cities. After that this unit proceeds to the target and attacks pretty much regardless of anything even if it takes many many turns to execute such an attack. In a mean while your relation with this AI might improve: alliance, trades, tech for per turn etc. However, it will not change the order of this unit unless it will be killed or wounded by a third party.

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On a side note: I noticed that AI always start a surprise war by attacking one of your city: never seen setller bop or woker snatch first. Once in OCC I was able to prevent war declaration on reload when I blocked a pass to my city by 2 galley. Germans could not unload right by the city and war did not start. However, they could reach the city if they unloaded 2 tiles away and than proceded by land what they never did.
Theoretically if you encircle all your settelments by any types of units making them not accessible for immediate attack you could avoid any surprise attacks. You will need to comply with demands though.

	20-10-2004 03:08									#7
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last time I was at war with them, I lined the border with fortresses and 3 mechanical infantry on each. Somehow, they broke through and stacked about 30 infantry on them. I tried to kill them but couldn't, and when the war ended, they just fortified there. How do I get them to leave? I do have the highest score and most military power, they are #2.

	20-10-2004 03:22									#8
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I think that is too complex to answer with out a save to analyze. I am not fond of splitting my troops. Having three units on each tile is how the AI loses it butt (not massing). It would be much harder to crack through if it was 15 MI's rather than 5 stacks of 3.

I am also not fond of fortresses as they can be bypassed and if they are taken they can be used against you. I do not want to defend on any tiles but hills. Better yet cities on hills.

So if you had put a single army on the tile in question, the AI would have left it alone.

	20-10-2004 03:31									#9
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If I just defend on cities, they will just come in and pillage all roads and all of that. Then I won't be able to defend the city. That's how I lost half my empire in my last game-the AI blocked/pillaged all my roads and I couldn't get supplies over in time.

	20-10-2004 05:16									#10
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Not sure how you got to the point that you could not prevent those events.

If you are #1 in all aspect, you should not have that many problems. If you are in fact weak compared to them per the advisor, then set up an open city farther back.

The AI will head for it and you can pick off chunks along the way. When they get near to the city, fortify it. Open a city someplace else and the AI will go that way.

Keep them running aound while you pick off all you can. If you have rails and at least one army, it will be an easy task.

Use your stack of bombardment units and kill all retreated units. The army on the stack prevents attacks.

By the time MI's are in the game you should be able to build armies to fill with MI and maybe one for tanks. Two MI armies will be perfect. One covers the bombardment stack and one covers the units that kill the retreating units.

	20-10-2004 05:20									#11
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Did you plant a spy and check on what they have in their armed forces?

By this point in the game you want to be sure to have at least as strong of a force as any of the civs.

	20-10-2004 05:26									#12
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quote: Originally posted by pvzh In general, asking to leave your territory is a ticket to war unless your military like 3 times larger.

Not true. I had a situation in AU 504 where 16 Iroquis Knights sat on on my soil (a continent exclusively Indian). It was after we made peace without a single battle - I payed them gold, 'cause they landed near two undefended cities. A couple turns later I had a force pulled to their positions and asked them to leave or declare. And whaddaya know, they left.

Some facts. It was 1425 and India:
- never killed a single Iroquis unit, nor attacked one,
- never took a single Iroquis city,
- never broke any treaties with anybody,
- had a running Peace Treaty with the Iroquis, when we asked them to leave,
- according to the F3 screea had a weak military comapred to the Iroquis,
- had more than twice their overall cultural value.

This was with the AU Mod, so their aggression level was even increased. I guess they had a good reputation and didn't want to waste it? Or did the Indian culture make them rethink any warmongering they were up to? I don't know, but I have a save from the exact year, as I was ecpecting a war.

And it does happen in my games, quite often actually. Especially with civs I was ever at war with, and even more so with overseas civs that never met anybody on my continent.

	21-10-2004 06:23									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

more cheating AI

actually in this case, it is a case of bad AI. The computer does not "remember" relationships. Unless you really **** someone over, they shouldn't go from an alliance to war in so few turns. This is the way I feel. Although this could depend on the type of alliance. some alliances are out of necessity rather than common values. Such as the soviet union and the u.s. during ww2. They could have went to war a short time after the war ended I suppose.

	21-10-2004 07:44									#14
	Put an end to popups!

I was convinced in the beginning few sentences of your post, Dissident. Then you changed my mind to the opposite viewpoint...all within the same post!

P.S. Actually, I do agree with you about what I would like to see from the AI, and you did highlight a good historical example...

	21-10-2004 08:08									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Actually, the AI is uncanningly like history here in this fickle alliance switching. Just take a close look at Europe oh say anytime in the last thousand years will do...

	21-10-2004 09:55									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner I was convinced in the beginning few sentences of your post, Dissident. Then you changed my mind to the opposite viewpoint...all within the same post! P.S. Actually, I do agree with you about what I would like to see from the AI, and you did highlight a good historical example...

yeah I did that to myself . I just thought of an example to contridict what I was saying halfway through writing my post oh well.

There is a way to implement this (in future versions of Civ). One would be ideology similar to SMAC. Opposing ideologies could turn on you quickly. So I'm saying if you have 2 nations with different goverments fighting a common enemy, it should be possible to form an alliance. But once that alliance is gone, the country doesn't necessarily like you. But if you have 2 countries running a democracy, then I don't think they should turn on you so fast. Didn't Civ2 have a value called disposition or something like that? Basically it showed how much the civ liked you. It should remain high during alliances. And if you aren't in alliances and don't make deals that are fair to them, then it should slowly drop.

	22-10-2004 02:30									#17
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Well, now I finally found a way to get them out. It sent 20 modern armors into their land, they ordered me to leave, so I left, and then they retreated as well.
Weird, huh?

	22-10-2004 06:53									#18
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Gosh, it almost sounds 'human'.

	24-10-2004 01:04									#19
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quote: Originally posted by shadow_fighter Well, now I finally found a way to get them out. It sent 20 modern armors into their land, they ordered me to leave, so I left, and then they retreated as well. Weird, huh?

finally the computer shows some sign of intelligence...

	24-10-2004 08:09									#20
	Remove this text

cool. The greatest ai of them all