19-10-2004 17:26									#1
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Most influential advice I got as an old Civ 2 player was 'forget everything about Civ 2': 3 look like an update of 2, but plays very differently.

The intention of the tech trading is to bankrupt all the other civs, but it starts with trading tech for tech. This keeps you at the forefront. As you learn a new tech you sell it all round - you want all the available cash, and also to prevent any of the other civs from having it (by selling your tech the next turn).

So you move from techs to getting lump sums, and as the other civs economies develop, gold per turn.

The cash, lump or per turn, funds your research to the next tech, so it can appear you are running at a loss. Then, you sell all round again, funding the next tech. The AIs economy is now geared to giving you cash, and the money they should be spending on reseach they are giving to you. Eventually they are still paying for the last techs as you try to offer them a new one, and you have to wait.

It requires a little more micromanagement and forward planning, but thats the tactic as I understand it.

It also works on GalCiv, and presumably other games too. The AU course AU601 has some reports of MP games illustrating this used against a human, very effectively.

	19-10-2004 17:56									#2
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You got that right. It gets the harder, the more you climb up the difficulty scale, though. It is unlikely to get a lead in Deity or Sid, at least until very late.

	19-10-2004 21:34									#3
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Im wondering where you draw the line with trading. Last night while playing, some of the more 'backward' civs only had 50gp, should I trade them mathmatics to them for that measly amount when I just traded it to the french for 150gp?

	19-10-2004 22:00									#4
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It depends. Selling technology so cheap is close to gifting it and will improve your relations with the AI. OTOH, the more of them have about equal technology, the more likely they are to catch you with their combined research effort. So in this case it's a matter of your preference - make them like you (for a more peaceful game) or make them fall behind badly (and kill them with superior units). Bare in mind that sometimes it is good to gift techs to keep a stronger AI from swallowing a backward civ.

If they have a large pile of money, I'd sell the tech and use the gold to research with a net loss. Money invested in beakers usually pays many times more, once you sell the technology.

	19-10-2004 22:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by The pirate Most influential advice I got as an old Civ 2 player was 'forget everything about Civ 2': 3 look like an update of 2, but plays very differently. The intention of the tech trading is to bankrupt all the other civs, but it starts with trading tech for tech. This keeps you at the forefront. As you learn a new tech you sell it all round - you want all the available cash, and also to prevent any of the other civs from having it (by selling your tech the next turn). So you move from techs to getting lump sums, and as the other civs economies develop, gold per turn. The cash, lump or per turn, funds your research to the next tech, so it can appear you are running at a loss. Then, you sell all round again, funding the next tech. The AIs economy is now geared to giving you cash, and the money they should be spending on reseach they are giving to you. Eventually they are still paying for the last techs as you try to offer them a new one, and you have to wait. It requires a little more micromanagement and forward planning, but thats the tactic as I understand it.

Yep that sounds about right.

quote: It also works on GalCiv, and presumably other games too. The AU course AU601 has some reports of MP games illustrating this used against a human, very effectively.

This is a little different though. I played AU601 and used the tactic to effectively deny my opponent the ability to trade for any technology without paying a significant amount of gold for it, or else research it himself. However that only worked because AU601 was a play-by-email that included 6 AI nations. Most PBEMs are human-only which makes it nearly impossible to deny a person all tech. Humans can sell (or gift) a tech to an underdog for less than what the going price would be, if they deem it to be a good investment (allies, etc.). AI nations don't have that ability to sell for less (unless it's to another AI nation )

	19-10-2004 22:29									#6
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I will "sell" ancient tech for as low as 30 gold if neighbours of this AI already have such tech (exception is math/ivory). I will do definetly for a worker even if I know that I "overpays" likes 3 times.

	19-10-2004 22:30									#7
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Look at it this way:

They will get it eventually anyway, most likely for 50 or close to it to the french. May as well be the one with the cash.

As for 'collective' research catching you...not usually once things are going. There are limited numbers of techs to research. So long as you are faster to what you are researching than any other AI, you can trade it for the techs the other AI have researched. Just be carefull, after you gain this first slight lead, not to gift the techs till the AI finish researching their own set of techs.

You don't want to gift away, say, currency for 200 gold to the french only to find they finish construction in 2 turns and you now have nothing of near equal value...

	19-10-2004 22:56									#8
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Definitely sell it for 50 gold, if they are the last (discovered) to get this tech. See it this way: A tech loses the more of its worth, the more civs know it. Also, the AI has in trades with other AIs defined advantages and will sell techs under value, if the others can't pay full price. Lastly, 50 gold for you, and the same 50 denied from the other civs, is almost like 100 gold. The best way to brake down AI-AI trade is to suck them dry of cash.

	19-10-2004 23:09									#9
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Two other things of note:

Sell to the civ that is willing/able to offer the most first, and work down, taking whatever you can get. After the first sale the perceived value goes down, so reap the largest available bounties first.

If an AI has a tech you don't have then don't worry about offering cash supplements. If you are going to clear out their bank with a tech sale you don't lose anything by it. This works on the basis that they would pay more for a tech if they could afford it of course.

	19-10-2004 23:47									#10
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If you care about relationships, you could consider gifting the civ some gold and then sell the tech. Now you get the 50 they started with and the amount you gifted.

You end up with the same net cash, but got a bunch of attaboy points.

	20-10-2004 01:25									#11
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The best situation is this:

You have researched a new tech. You are the only one who has it. Let's say you know 3 AI civs:

AI Civ1 knows 3 techs you don't. Two of them are known by all the AIs, and one is not.

AI Civ2 knows the 2 ubiquitous techs, and has a bundle of cash.

AI Civ3 knows the 2 ubiquitous techs and is broke.

Step1: I'd trade your new tech to AI Civ1 for the one tech the other 2 AIs don't know, even if I have to pay for it.

Step2: Trade your tech + the tech you just got in step1 to AI Civ2 for all their gold and as much tech as you can get (possibly only one of the two, depending on how much gold you're getting).

Step3: AI Civ3 can provide me with the last tech if Civ2 didn't give it up. If I got all the tech in step2, AI Civ3 is just screwed. If that is a strategic concern (say they're the weakling, far away from you and have nothing you want to take by force. You may choose to gift them some tech to make it tougher on the other 2 AIs to conquer them).

Obviously there are exceptions. I don't trade Literature to the AI. Ever. Ditto Republic. Ditto any tech that provides a wonder I'm trying to build and am not positive I've got locked up.

If you really want to get the very best deals, you should check the diplomacy screen nearly every turn. I don't, mostly because I'm too lazy and I'm so concentrated on my own empire.

-Arrian

	20-10-2004 02:18									#12
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quote: [SIZE=1] (say they're the weakling, far away from you and have nothing you want to take by force.). -Arrian

Can't say that's ever come up...

	20-10-2004 03:06									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian If you really want to get the very best deals, you should check the diplomacy screen nearly every turn. I don't, mostly because I'm too lazy and I'm so concentrated on my own empire.

What do you mean by this part, what exactly can you tell by the diplomacy screen ?

	20-10-2004 03:22									#14
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You can contact every civ in every turn, looking which deals are possible and who gives you the most for it. Not mandatory up to Monarch, gets more important in Emperor and Demigod, essential in Deity and Sid.

	20-10-2004 03:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 If you care about relationships, you could consider gifting the civ some gold and then sell the tech. Now you get the 50 they started with and the amount you gifted. You end up with the same net cash, but got a bunch of attaboy points.

I do this all the time.

Strange advice coming from you, v.

	20-10-2004 05:22									#16
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I don't use it myself, but I am aware of it. You know I am fond of crushing them with force.

	21-10-2004 06:21									#17
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Agreed

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 If you care about relationships, you could consider gifting the civ some gold and then sell the tech. Now you get the 50 they started with and the amount you gifted. You end up with the same net cash, but got a bunch of attaboy points.

	21-10-2004 08:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 It depends. Selling technology so cheap is close to gifting it and will improve your relations with the AI.

I don't believe this is correct. Selling techs cheaply does not improve AI attitude, only gifts do. Even if you sell a tech for 1g, it will have no positive effect on attitude.

So, as vmxa1 points out, you need to first gift them cash (I think the limit is 100, after that there is no effect on attitude), then sell them a tech to get all your cash back plus whatever else they have. Either that, or just gift them the tech.

	21-10-2004 09:04									#19
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I'm pretty sure that when you give the AI a favorable deal, their Attitude toward you will improve. When I trade Code of Laws to the Germans for 80 Gold they always go from "Annoyed" to "Polite". Obviously relations would improve even more if I gifted the tech to them, but I prefer the 80 Gold!

	21-10-2004 09:10									#20
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With a face like that Id say you scared the money out of them...

But yea, sometimes it seems like any trade at all will bump up yer relations with the civ. Its almost like theyve forgotten you are friendly and need to be reminded...

	21-10-2004 09:48									#21
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I can't speak to the good deal apsect of attitude, but I can say that accepting any deal as offered has a positive impact.

I would just switch to a gift then sell basic if the amount tendered was very small or a flat out gift.

	21-10-2004 11:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I don't believe this is correct. Selling techs cheaply does not improve AI attitude, only gifts do. Even if you sell a tech for 1g, it will have no positive effect on attitude.

I definately have experienced that many times, both in PTW and in C3C. Not only with selling tech, but also with giving them other favorable deals.

If they are furious already, you "might" not notice the attitude change.

	22-10-2004 18:52									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Shr3dZ With a face like that Id say you scared the money out of them...

My chief diplomat has much better looks...

	22-10-2004 19:12									#24
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IIRC from Bamspeedy's article, any deal with the AI temporarily improves their attitude towards you by the same amount. A gift improves it more.

So if you can afford to give them something for relatively cheap, it's better to first give them a free gift, and then make a normal trade and get your gift back.

	22-10-2004 19:21									#25
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Yeah, I remember that now. I keep forgetting to do that...

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 19:51									#26
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I'll have to go read Bamspeedy's article again then. I thought a cheap sale didn't help attitude

	22-10-2004 20:20									#27
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Along the lines of what Alexman said, I believe it's a simple yes or no as to whether you've made a deal with that AI in the last x (10?) turns, or have an ongoing deal.