19-10-2004 18:18									#1
	Longterm research goals Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let's say we've aquired Ethical Calculus. What should we research towards next?

I see three options - go for energy lifting and try to beat the game economically.

Go for missle weapons and air power and build up military strength - we can conquer Hive bases then and have a military to threathen or use against other human factions. (although choppers cannot attack bases, needles are still excellent units capable of covering our forces and striking from longer distances against enemy bases).

Go for the planetary datalinks and CDF. Not sure what to say, getting PD would be useful (although we would get a crapload of useless techs, but probably also restriction lifting ones too), but CDFs value diminshes if enemy uses air assaults to support his assaults.

Preferably we could go for Initiative waiting for Yang to discover HEC, probe it, and research missle weapons using that (or not, if Yang can research it faster). Having missle weapons and initiative we just need DAP for needles, and we can start massing forces for assault on Hive or someone else.
I guess we can get restriction lifting techs from others in future, or coop with Angels to discover them all alone. Also, adding Morgan in equation in future may affect things. This is not yet a poll, but discussion, and a very important one.

	19-10-2004 18:35									#2
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I say - take the first option + the 2nd option will be brought to us by probing Yang!

	19-10-2004 20:12									#3
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We can hold off on restriction lifting for a while since we can build condensor-farms and start creating specialist cities to aid our energy deficiency. Crawlers on forests can aid our mineral deficiency. Let's carefully go after D:AP, grabbing as many techs as practical from Yang on the way.

We currently have the option of pursuing the PTS. In a few turns, we'll have an artifact available to help construction, lowering its effective cost to 190 minerals (~8 crawlers). It's probably too early to go after it now, but if it's still unclaimed in ~10 years, it would be very helpful.

	19-10-2004 20:20									#4
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On the other hand - we have the best ability to build boreholes from all the factions, but we cannot use them till Eco Eng and D:AP will be DEFINITELY researched by Yang, it will onl take 5-10 turns longer than our "combined" efforts

	19-10-2004 21:35									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory We can hold off on restriction lifting for a while since we can build condensor-farms and start creating specialist cities to aid our energy deficiency. Crawlers on forests can aid our mineral deficiency. Let's carefully go after D:AP, grabbing as many techs as practical from Yang on the way. We currently have the option of pursuing the PTS. In a few turns, we'll have an artifact available to help construction, lowering its effective cost to 190 minerals (~8 crawlers). It's probably too early to go after it now, but if it's still unclaimed in ~10 years, it would be very helpful.

Is there any other SP that could be useful to us? What if we got TCN technology (DL) in near future? Would it be useful to us?

	19-10-2004 21:43									#6
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I don't value the Command Nexus very highly, especially with our ability to use native life. The first few morale levels are the easiest to gain, anyway, and when in Wealth, the CN is even less valuable.

	20-10-2004 15:04									#7
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It's a pity that EG is disabled..

Our next possible SPs:
CDF, AV, PD (Planetary Datalinks), LV

We're on the way to at least for 2 of them

	22-10-2004 12:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin On the other hand - we have the best ability to build boreholes from all the factions, but we cannot use them till Eco Eng

Is this because of resource restrictions are lifted then?

* MrWhereItsAt does not have his SMAX poster at hand right now.

It's across the room, in the drawer. I'm comfortable where I am.

	22-10-2004 13:46									#9
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quote: Is this because of resource restrictions are lifted then?

Exactly, Eco Eng gives 3+ minerals. Without them boreholes are useless (as they produce 2mins & 2energy)

	23-10-2004 00:36									#10
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Please jump in with your comments and / or additions.

========================================
CDF Pros: Serious protection from both irrational AI and the irrational Spartans. Would be easily paid for since we would almost certainly have at least 6 cities in a large empire which build PDs anyway. Probe teams would be impotent to destroy PDs.

CDF Cons: The protection wanes after Doc:AP. We would likely have competition from the Spartans to build this SP.


AV Pros: With the +1 to Police, we could run the Police SE and gain the magic +3 (double)Police rating. This would help size 9 cities.

AV Cons: Hmm. can't think of any


PD Pros: We could "turtle" technologically. Stop all tech trading and allow the PD to deliver those techs we don't yet have.

PD Cons: This SP is still relatively weak. The other factions could simply not trade certain techs as a denial strategy.


PTS Pros: Faster population development even before hab complexes are built. More votes for governor. More resources collected.

PTS Cons: We might look like a fatter, juicier target for the other factions.


LV Pros: Suppresses one drone per city.....eh, who cares.

LV Cons: Can get the same basic effect plus some from either the AV or PTS

	23-10-2004 02:59									#11
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Please jump in with your comments and / or additions. AV Pros: With the +1 to Police, we could run the Police SE and gain the magic +3 (double)Police rating. This would help size 9 cities. AV Cons: Hmm. can't think of any

The Gaians have -1 Police as a faction mod. The AV + Police State would only yield +2, nothing special. The cost of running PS could be pretty high, too.

quote: LV Pros: Suppresses one drone per city.....eh, who cares. LV Cons: Can get the same basic effect plus some from either the AV or PTS

Under Planned (where we might spend a lot of time), the LV quells 2 drones per city. It's like the Virtual World, but you don't need the network nodes! LV + Rec Commons = 4 citizens, regardless of bureaucracy. Once you hit size 5, start using specialists. The PTS only suppresses drones in small cities (size 3 or smaller).

	23-10-2004 17:23									#12
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Back to thread topic, would getting Ethical Calculus for research be the best option then? I would prefer getting it via trade, however we should see what will Yang research next (after Optical Computers), then get Calculus, so we can redirect research the other option in our bid for DAP.

	25-10-2004 18:24									#13
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Let's go for it - it will take time anyway, so we can acquire it by other means as research nears completion!

	25-10-2004 21:33									#14
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Do we want a democratic social engineering setting? It could quite disable our support level. But it would restore our efficiency rating to +2....good for ICS. If we are not intending to ICS and want to build up, we would need it as a road to splicing, then to eco engineering then environmental econ - for boreholes and such.

We don't need calculus that much if we were aiming for police state. Police State would bring efficiency to -2, more drones, but also more repression from police, but we have a hard time to get 3 police units unless we have Ascetic Virtues. However, it gives us great support.

What is Yang's research power? If he's quite slow, we should research Calculus directly first.

	25-10-2004 21:37									#15
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Yang's research power is pretty good, 6 turns/tech IIRC.

Police State is an awful choice for the Gaians, as the benefits it brings are higher support, +1 police unit allowed, and nerve stapling allowed. Democracy is a bad choice right now, but once we plant the next wave of bases we should consider it seriously. We will need to run it eventually to pop boom, but should not throw away free minerals at new bases. Even with +2 effic, we'll have b-drones, and will need to cope with first-citizen drones.

	25-10-2004 21:44									#16
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I don't recall seeing Yang researching Calculus often - he is usually the first to develop missle weaponry and D:AP. Calculus is a priority, but a distant one - we need our next wave of bases planted, and also equip bases with Rec: Commons - we can get Demo and Creches then and popboom.

	25-10-2004 21:54									#17
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And Creches are a substitute of Eth Calc IIRC..

	25-10-2004 22:05									#18
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Creches only provide +1 effic, not +2...

And you have to build them, and they cost maintenence.

Do we go temporarily police state with the base wave turns or so, then switch to demo?

(However, it will cost us 80 credits, which is not so attractive). Do we have any commerce at the moment? With police state anyhow, it will enable us to nerve staple. With good luck, if sunspots hit us at the time too. :

	25-10-2004 22:08									#19
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Creches provide +2 effic to their base for purposes of energy lost to inefficiency.

We cannot nerve staple bases without running Police State. The cost of that would be 40 ECs (assuming we proceed immediately to Demo) + lost trade for the next 300 or so turns + substantially reduced energy flow for a turn.

We will want creches for the +growth before we want them for the +effic. Of higher priority are rec tanks and rec commons, as well as crawler and former fleets and garrisons.

	25-10-2004 22:11									#20
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See my comment about sunspots. Its just a remote, but still quite real, possibility.

	25-10-2004 22:17									#21
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Are random events enabled in the ACDG? I haven't seen one yet, but that's no guarantee.

	25-10-2004 22:29									#22
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Usual scenario rules I believe.

	12-11-2004 17:26									#23
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As a Lord of Progress I felt a need to bring up this discussion once again.

The situation:

It has been decided that our next tech to research will be Env Ecol, but things after that are unclear.

Earlier on we had agreed that we b-line first for IA, then restriction lifting and then clean minerals.

Lately we have come to conclusion that Neural Amplifier SP could be very useful to us (due to our NL army, which is going to rise).


So what I propose is that we go for:

1.SofTHB
2.NeurGraft
3.BioEng

after we finish Ecol Eng and Env Eco


Pro are that we can get many good things at one shot (we should also consider Longevity Vaccine a VERY useful project as it could solve our B-Drone problems easily).

List:
1.Minerals 3+ - boreholes become useful (that's our shot to victory due WP)
2.Rise/lower land (our strategic decision bout landbridge in N)
3.Energy 3+ - solution for our slow research, again boreholes save the day!
4.Tree Farms - we need it if we're not going to Condense all forests and we need it if we are going to (ecodamage), + if we are going to multiply econ / psych
5.Prereq for CentEmp and EG and our own MWs! (SofTHB)
6.Neural Amplifier (psi armor becomes the best armor with this - always 1:1 + morale modifiers!!!)
7.Bioenhancement Centers (we might use them in some ilitary bases for +1Lifecycle)
8.Clean reactors - our terraformers become unstoppable!
9.LV: -2 drones per base (B-Drones? What is that??)
10. 3 VERY valuable techs for trading with other factions!

Cons: none (the only thing I can think about is that we do not get useful military techs, but we can ALWAYS steal them from Yang as his research speed is quite good)

And I think that Neural Amplifier is even more valuable than MCC, as it gives bonus to ALL NL units, and the bonus is better.

	12-11-2004 18:56									#24
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I see a plan for getting intelectual integrity and ethical calculus within this research cycle - I suggest we at least consider it.

	12-11-2004 19:27									#25
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Ethical calculus is good for Creches and later Demo, but you can only get full use of demo after BioEng (due to support costs)

Also - it's a low level and common tech, so we can get it for Ecol Eng + require some other things (other tech, maps, payments etc.)

Intel. Integrity gives us NO credit!
You want to build CDF?

For what reason?

If landbridge is sunk, there is no need of CDF!

And noone (read "no Spartan") is so stupid that he transports large amounts of troops overseas, risking to sink them and to be by target and meet enemys needlejets..

Just take the savegame and make an estimate how much would it take!

	12-11-2004 19:39									#26
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Intellectual Integrity is quite useful to even us, as it allows us to build police units, and suppress 4 drones between them and rec commons. When a city reaches 5, just start making useful specialists.

On your list, binTravkin, we will not gain the ability to raise/lower (already have it from WP) and the ability to build the EG (disabled).

If we aren't going to build the CDF, then we might as well trade Sparta the tech and let them build it; I'm sure we can get some value out of it, if they have anything interesting for us. If we are, we'll need IntInt before them. I still favor boreholes above all this.

	12-11-2004 19:43									#27
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quote: Intellectual Integrity is quite useful to even us, as it allows us to build police units, and suppress 4 drones between them and rec commons. When a city reaches 5, just start making useful specialists. On your list, binTravkin, we will not gain the ability to raise/lower (already have it from WP) and the ability to build the EG (disabled). If we aren't going to build the CDF, then we might as well trade Sparta the tech and let them build it; I'm sure we can get some value out of it, if they have anything interesting for us. If we are, we'll need IntInt before them. I still favor boreholes above all this.

Ok, I just didn't read the DA contact thread.

I don't think Spartans will have the need for IntInt, as they have probaby 2-3 turns left to finish Doc:Loy, so they will switch to IntInt themselves.

I have an idea but that will be posted in DA contact thread.