21-10-2004 22:07									#151
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Interesting take on it, LotM.

-Arrian

	21-10-2004 22:13									#152
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If that means we have to live through another era like the 50s, blech!

	21-10-2004 22:26									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Interesting take on it, LotM. -Arrian

Thanks.

Note that this rationale implies a commitment to being part of the inevitable struggle for the soul of the Kerry administration. A struggle which i fully expect to be bitter. Far more bitter than, say the war the NYT carried on against Bill Clinton over welfare reform, or that Harpers carried on against Clinton over Clintons support for globalization and market democracy. Indeed, one rationale for voting for Kerry would be to have more credibility in that struggle.


Im so glad i dont live in a swing state.

	21-10-2004 22:42									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'm not a socialist. I don't want socialized medicine... I want the most efficient and highest quality health care system. What socialist ideas do I hold? I can't think of any. I'd classify myself as a Progressive... like Teddy Roosevelt. My ideals: progressive tax system free education most efficient health care (if a single-payer system is the best, then so be it... but I really don't know if socialized medicine could do better.) government regulated economy (not government controlled... two different things) America having the strongest, most advanced military I'm a bigtime social liberal... I am libertarian in that aspect. But in terms of economics, I'm slightly left of center. but a socialist? nope... although I agree with them on some things... like abuses by corporations and such.

You seem to differ from the traditional socialist position only on details of policy implemetation.

What is your position on the following statement:

A primary purpose of government is to foster "social equality."

	21-10-2004 22:46									#155
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Che is ignorant about liberalism as well, the way he spews out hateful labels such as "spineless" but you are WORSE in your ignorance about liberalism. I am not a socialist -- I am a moderate liberal (I don't consider myself absolutely centrist, but to the left of centrism).

Please explain the basic tenets of your liberalism, if you please. If you have a noted author who has laid out your philosophy, that might help.

But I will ask you the same question I asked Sava. What do you think about this statement?

A primary purpose of government is to foster "social equality."

	21-10-2004 22:48									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Better economy? Than a depression? The economy was going to recover on its own, and it is still a mess. Over half a million net jobs still gone, and that says nothing of the lack of growth that is needed for the 9 million new immigrants and general population growth. Big business recovered because of Bush, company profits are up. Working Class families are in a mess, and the measly Bush tax cut is a joke. -Drachasor

Drach, the thing you apparently don't understand is that Kerry has advocated balancing the budget and raising taxes to do that during a recession. Historically, that policy when implemented has caused great depressions. I refer you to Martin van Buren and Herbert Hoover.

	21-10-2004 22:51									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Ned You seem to differ from the traditional socialist position only on details of policy implemetation. What is your position on the following statement: A primary purpose of government is to foster "social equality."

That's funny, because when I have said I am a socialist, everyone starts telling me what my policies are concerning government ownership of near everything, and so forth. When I tell them I am for social equality and related items, but I disagree with the way these have traditionally been implemented in Europe, I am told I am not a socialist. (My position is then that I am either not a socialist, but share some beliefs with them, or I am some sort of neo-neo-socialist or a "pragmatic socialist").

Anyhow, you can't act like socialism is crazy or bound for horror if you allow "socialists" to use any methods they want to foster greater social equality. There are a lot of things that simply haven't been tried.

-Drachasor

	21-10-2004 22:52									#158
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I think it's generally called the Third Way.

-Arrian

	21-10-2004 22:54									#159
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Another reaosn to vote for Kerry: posters like Wiglaf

There is a pattern to the leftist dialetic. If they lose the battle of ideas, they either divert attention or attack their adversary personally.

	21-10-2004 22:58									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Drach, the thing you apparently don't understand is that Kerry has advocated balancing the budget and raising taxes to do that during a recession. Historically, that policy when implemented has caused great depressions. I refer you to Martin van Buren and Herbert Hoover.

LOL, you think that is what caused the Great Depression? Overpriced stocks, buying stocks on credit, and Hoover's raising of farm *tarriffs* made and worsened the depression. Kerry isn't proposing any tarrifs (the only thing even close is equalizing the taxes for off-shore companies compared to ones in the U.S. which is quite different).

The economy is already on a slow recovery, and it will recover faster by giving the working class the equivalent of tax breaks. The rich can survive a few rough months a lot better than the poor, and heck, the only thing keepin the economy from fully recovering is the lack of spending by the working class. Right now a lot of business have made much more massive recoveries than the job market; they can take a hit to their incomes (and they were doing just fine under Clinton too).

-Drachasor

	21-10-2004 22:58									#161
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If that means we have to live through another era like the 50s, blech!

nothing wrong with the 50's. unless you were a minority (but that was no different than in the 40's- it was a slow process)

	21-10-2004 23:00									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident nothing wrong with the 50's. unless you were a minority (but that was no different than in the 40's- it was a slow process)

Or poor or a woman or gay or an intellectual or basically anything else that went against the mainstream. The 50s, a culturally dead, soul sucking vampire decade. The reason the 60s were so over the top was because of the 50s.

	21-10-2004 23:00									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Please explain the basic tenets of your liberalism, if you please. If you have a noted author who has laid out your philosophy, that might help. But I will ask you the same question I asked Sava. What do you think about this statement? A primary purpose of government is to foster "social equality."

I don't like the word social. I'd use civil instead. And of course the primary purpose of the federal goverment is to provide national security- ie a military to unite the states against a common aggressor.

	21-10-2004 23:00									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Ned There is a pattern to the leftist dialetic. If they lose the battle of ideas, they either divert attention or attack their adversary personally.

Oh, I thought they were just commenting on Wiglaf's innane and incorrect ramblings.

While some companies in other countries exploited holes in the Oil for Food program, the governments weren't part of it. His innane banter doesn't help his position either, nor does it lessen the fact that we need many allies, many strong allies, and many close allies to maintain our status in the world.

-Drachasor

	21-10-2004 23:01									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm starting to waver in my support for a third party candidate. I'm a flip-flopper . I'm now thinking of voting Kerry. What I ask of my fellow democratic poly members is this (remember I'm in a swing state- I could decide the next president ). In another thread people were saying raising the minimum wage is almost always followed by economic expansion. If someone will provide proof of this (independant sites not associated with loonie liberal sites) I will promise to vote for John Kerry. I am voting tomorrow, so get cracking.

Dis, think.

1) You raise wages of a significant number of people you get two short term effects: more buying power in the hands of the minimum wage worker; and

2) Continued buying power for those who are laid off due to unemployment insurance.

But after a while, the unemployment compensation ends, and overall employment and employability is reduced. This reduces overall economic activity.

Money does not grow on trees. Neither does the ability to pay wages. Those who tell you otherwise are lying to you.

	21-10-2004 23:01									#166
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how can you not vote for this man (although his reason for not carrying the bird himself is cheesy)

	21-10-2004 23:01									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Ned There is a pattern to the leftist dialetic.

dialectic == the logic of change
This is an inappropriate use of the term.

	21-10-2004 23:02									#168
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Or poor or a woman or gay or an intellectual or basically anything else that went against the mainstream. The 50s, a culturally dead, soul sucking vampire decade. The reason the 60s were so over the top was because of the 50s.

God yes....any era that advocates valium to make sure women don't become bored when they stay at home all the time and do housework has serious problems.

-Drachasor

	21-10-2004 23:02									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Ned There is a pattern to the leftist dialetic. If they lose the battle of ideas, they either divert attention or attack their adversary personally.

Both sides do this when they're either losing an argument or frustrated with the opponent. A leftist will typically call the opponent stupid or evil, and a rightist will typically call the opponent a degenerate (socially values) or a traitor. *shrug*

-Arrian

	21-10-2004 23:02									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly But you give someone who's making $5.15 a raise to $7.00 and you know what? They're not going to save that extra $1.85. They're going to take that extra money -- maybe $40/week after taxes -- and buy some new clothes, or more food, or maybe just new cds, or eat out more, or go to the movies instead of watching tv, or whatever. They're going to put it right back into the consumer economy, where it will do the most good.

True for those who remained employed. Not true for those who are laid off or who never get a job in the first place due to the price barrier.

	21-10-2004 23:04									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Dis, think. 1) You raise wages of a significant number of people you get two short term effects: more buying power in the hands of the minimum wage worker; and 2) Continued buying power for those who are laid off due to unemployment insurance. But after a while, the unemployment compensation ends, and overall employment and employability is reduced. This reduces overall economic activity. Money does not grow on trees. Neither does the ability to pay wages. Those who tell you otherwise are lying to you.

Handily ignoring the fact the more buying power means the companies are getting more profit; the working class loves to spend money. That's going to increase the profits companies make.

-Drachasor

	21-10-2004 23:04									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Ned True for those who remained employed. Not true for those who are laid off or who never get a job in the first place due to the price barrier.

but they will be compensated by unemployment insurance. And in the mean time the higher paid workers will be spending the extra money putting it back into the economy creating more jobs. They won't be out of work long.

I expect a temporary dip in employment if the minimum wage increases. But overall I think it is good for the economy to raise minimum wage every so often.

	21-10-2004 23:05									#173
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark some different reasons to vote for Kerry. (not that im sure I will) In the late 1940's some dems thought that it was necessary for the GOP to take over, to force them to be responsible, to stop sniping at the Cold war from the sidelines (who lost China and all that) and to face up to the real difficulties Cold war policy dilemmas presented. We may be at that point now. The WOT has to be a national war, and not a GOP war. Its easy to snipe at policies in Iraq, at the failure to capture bin laden, at the Patriot act. It is necessary that a Democrat President face dilemmas of dealing with Musharraf and the Saudis, of hunting for OBL, of dealing with reconstruction in Iraq. That a Dem Attorney General face the prospect of revising the Patriot Act, deciding what parts need to be kept, and then defending that decision. That a Dem Sec of Homeland Security administer the alert system, or scrap and replace it if theres a better one. Tha a Dem foreign policy team ultimately face down those elements, in the US and abroad, that are not reconcilable, that are not supportive of even a more multilateral WOT - as the Eisenhower admin ultimately faced down Joe McCarthy. I cannot assure you that the above will happen in a Kerry administration, but IF it does, it will be very valuable.

This is perverse.

	21-10-2004 23:08									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Both sides do this when they're either losing an argument or frustrated with the opponent. A leftist will typically call the opponent stupid or evil, and a rightist will typically call the opponent a degenerate (socially values) or a traitor. *shrug* -Arrian

quote: Originally posted by Ned in response to a long-winded post by a possible leftist This is perverse.

quote: Entry: perverse Function: adjective Definition: mean Synonyms: abnormal, bad-tempered, *****y, cantankerous, capricious, contradictory, contrary, contumacious, corrupt, crabby, cross, degenerate, delinquent, depraved, deviant, disobedient, dogged, erring, fractious, hard-nosed, headstrong, intractable, intransigent, irritable, miscreant, mulish, nefarious, obdurate, obstinate, ornery, petulant, pig-headed, rebellious, refractory, rotten, self-willed, spiteful, stubborn, unhealthy, unmanageable, unreasonable, unyielding, villainous, wayward, wicked, willful

-Drachasor

	21-10-2004 23:10									#175
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Well done, sir.

-Arrian

	21-10-2004 23:11									#176
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quote: Handily ignoring the fact the more buying power means the companies are getting more profit; the working class loves to spend money. That's going to increase the profits companies make.

That will more likely increase inflation.

	21-10-2004 23:11									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor That's funny, because when I have said I am a socialist, everyone starts telling me what my policies are concerning government ownership of near everything, and so forth. When I tell them I am for social equality and related items, but I disagree with the way these have traditionally been implemented in Europe, I am told I am not a socialist. (My position is then that I am either not a socialist, but share some beliefs with them, or I am some sort of neo-neo-socialist or a "pragmatic socialist"). Anyhow, you can't act like socialism is crazy or bound for horror if you allow "socialists" to use any methods they want to foster greater social equality. There are a lot of things that simply haven't been tried. -Drachasor

Good.

That some people can define socialism to be exactly what their personal manifesto is and that everyone who does not agree with this manifesto is not a socialist is interesting but not important. Such rigid orthodoxy is like saying the only Christians are those who adhere to all the dogma of a particular sect.

Socialists seem to have central values, but differ in methods. The main central value seems to be that government should promote "social equality."

	21-10-2004 23:12									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Japher That will more likely increase inflation.

Not really, you might have some product shortages here and there, but that will cause a ramp in profits which would then cause a ramp up in production.

Any negative effects would be temporary.

-Drachasor

	21-10-2004 23:15									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor LOL, you think that is what caused the Great Depression? Overpriced stocks, buying stocks on credit, and Hoover's raising of farm *tarriffs* made and worsened the depression. Kerry isn't proposing any tarrifs (the only thing even close is equalizing the taxes for off-shore companies compared to ones in the U.S. which is quite different). The economy is already on a slow recovery, and it will recover faster by giving the working class the equivalent of tax breaks. The rich can survive a few rough months a lot better than the poor, and heck, the only thing keepin the economy from fully recovering is the lack of spending by the working class. Right now a lot of business have made much more massive recoveries than the job market; they can take a hit to their incomes (and they were doing just fine under Clinton too). -Drachasor

Drach, the consensus view seems to be that unbalanced budgets and government induced demand are a primary if not the only way to get out of a depression, and that balancing budgets and raising taxes only reinforces a recession into a depression.

Remember, we only really got out of the depression of the 30's when we began massive deficit spending during WWII.

	21-10-2004 23:17									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I don't like the word social. I'd use civil instead. And of course the primary purpose of the federal goverment is to provide national security- ie a military to unite the states against a common aggressor.

I did not say "THE." I said "A."