21-10-2004 17:44									#1
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Just another possible idea... but I lack the ability to do the SLIC programming....

How about setting the civlizations in categories..

say the first 5 civs human
the next 5 orcs
the next 5 elves
the next 5 undead, etc.

then have a class setting built in (this is the SLIC part) that makes them follow new tech trees for each race...

these new tech trees running new units for each one...

thus creating a RACE specific tech tree for each race and race specific units that advance through time for each race... hell even tilesets for the races for cities etc.

it'd be a BIG BIG BIG undertaking yes I know...

but I can do quite a bit of graphic editing myself and the *.txt modding parts for unit stats research requirements etc.

but I am clueless on the SLIC part...

basically, I figure you could run 6 versions of the game at the same time in 6 different configurations in the gamedata folder, each race having its own set of files for the tileimp.txt, advance.txt, units.txt etc...

the only REAL SLIC programming would be the file that determines what race you are off the very start

	21-10-2004 19:47									#2
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As you say, the amount of SLIC code involved is minimal, could be coded in a few minutes once the basic setup is in place. The easiest way to do it is probably to have 1 unique starting advance for each race (ADVANCE_HUMAN, ADVANCE_ORC, etc) which has itself as prerequisite (so noone can research it) and is required for all other advances in the race tree. Then use SLIC to give the right starting advance to the right civ.

The only problems might occur with goody huts, trading and stealing of advances and stuff like that, but one could easily use the SLIC mod_* functions to prevent Human players from building Orc units/buildings/etc even if they do get their hands on the wrong advances. Would be slightly more work, but can probably still be done in one afternoon.

So, that just leaves you with the humongous job of creating all the units, buildings, advances, etc

Oh, the only real problem would be in the limits of the game. As it is, you can only have 64 buildings and wonders, 200 (or 255 if you're using the AE) sprites per type (units, cities, goods, special effects, etc), 62 civs and there are probably 1 or 2 other limits that I'm forgetting about. But if you ask the AE programmers nicely they might be able to fix that for you...

	21-10-2004 20:01									#3
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Yeah, I think someone tried something similar once before. Setting up the tech tree was a bit of a challenge though.

I wrote out a three-strand tech tree once, and then decided it wasn't worth the effort. Besides all the limitations, balancing it would be horrendous.

Depending on how you want the victory conditions set up, that could be a nighmare as well. The easiest way is to cut out the sceince victory and just make it a bloodlust game, I suppose.

	22-10-2004 01:39									#4
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I set up a dual techtree for WOTR. It's really not that hard to do. You can easily limit techtrading and goody hut techs via txt alts. In fact, it is possible to set up multiple (3+) techtrees, provided you have a premade map in a scenario.

However, you cannot use multiple techtrees in a random map game unless SLIC is involved.

	22-10-2004 14:01									#5
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian However, you cannot use multiple techtrees in a random map game unless SLIC is involved.

You mean because of the goody huts? Well you can mod them so that they don't give any advances.

However by using the mod_CanPlayerHaveAdvance slic function it is very easily to limit certain advances to certain players. The Alexander the Great scenario contains an example of it.

-Martin

	22-10-2004 14:50									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann You mean because of the goody huts? Well you can mod them so that they don't give any advances.

No, he means because you need to make sure all civs only get access to the section of the tree they're supposed to get access to.

But that is another good trick to help avoid problems.

	22-10-2004 19:13									#7
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DiffDF.txt determines what advances a civ starts out with in a random game. It is based on percentages.

However, there is no way in that file to control which civ gets specific advances. So civ A may get the advance required for a specific tech tree, but civ B may or may not get its advance intended by the creator. And you may end up with a civ getting access to 2 trees. Then it is locked into researching both trees which will kill it long term.

Shutting off tech trading via diplomacy and goody advances will prevent a key tech ending up in the wrong hands.

	22-10-2004 21:28									#8
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So or so, without slic it seems that you cannot, really prevent civs from getting the wrong advance. So the mod_CanPlayerHaveAdvance is the finest sollution.

-Martin

	28-10-2004 02:05									#9
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If by implementing the idea that all techs must have a prerequisite of a race specific tree, then one could still trade techs. They would only get the techs they traded and could not research any further techs on that path because all techs would have the race specific tech as a prerequisite. However, i realize how this could be cercumvented by tradfing that specific race tech and allowing your opponent to research 2 trees. Might add some strategy in because if the opponent isnt in the industrial revelution, then there empire would crumble from all the extra techs, but also getting the additional buildings would help. I would hope very much that 1 or many brave individuals put forth the effort in creating the tech trees and building images and units for this mod, for I would love to play it. I would, but do not posses the slic editting capabilities, nor know how to manipulate the txt files without causing a massive amount of errors.

	28-10-2004 04:39									#10
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Theres a flag isn't there that will stop the AI trading certain technologies, eg nuclear power. If the base technology was protected in this way, or even all the race specific ones that would solve any problems. Wouldn't it?

Why would having the other race's technologies affect development and destroy your civ? Do you have you research all technologies in each age, or jsut the ones that will move your civ along the tech tree?

You might not need to develop entirely different trees for each race. Certain technologies should be univesal - hull making, masonry etc

	28-10-2004 13:53									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Deathstar I would, but do not posses the slic editting capabilities, nor know how to manipulate the txt files without causing a massive amount of errors.

I wouldn't mind doing any required SLIC code (won't be much), but I think if you want to have see this happening you'll have to do a good portion of the text file editing yourself. Developing 3 or more tech trees (including units, wonders, etc) is a HUGE amount of work, it's not like someone could throw that together in an afternoon to do anyone a favour -- it would be weeks, if not months of work.

As far as text file editing goes, that's not as hard as you might think. You can simply adapt files that already exist, it's not like you'll have to write them from scratch or anything. And if you ever run into any trouble, plenty of people here to help you out...

Of course, if you could get a handful of volunteers together that would considerably cut down on the amount of work involved per person. But of course you would have to agree on what the trees should look like first...

It seems to me LStanley, Deathstar and Mad Eye all three have an interest in this, maybe you guys can work something out? Don't count too much on veteran community members doing much of the work for you (though we're always here for 'tech support'), we all have our plates full as it is...

	28-10-2004 16:53									#12
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"So or so, without slic it seems that you cannot, really prevent civs from getting the wrong advance. So the mod_CanPlayerHaveAdvance is the finest sollution.

-Martin".

Can I ask a couple of questions re the above.

I gather that this type of function is called automatically each turn-
int_f mod_CanPlayerHaveAdvance[COLOR=royalblue]

Can you put a condition in it like-
if (HasAdvance(tmpPlayer, ID_ADVANCE_MONARCHY)) {
if (theAdvance == AdvanceDB(ADVANCE_CALIPHATE)){
return 0;
} else {
return 1;
}
So a player with Monarchy cannot research Caliphate.

Thanks.

	28-10-2004 18:20									#13
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Yes, you can. You can use any SLIC code you want to do exactly those kinds of things, that's exactly what the function was designed to do.

BTW, I just had a few moments to test it and found out something which I never realized before: if you use mod_CanPlayerHaveAdvance to say someone can't have an advance, then they really cannot by any possible means get it. I tried obtaining it through goody huts, espionage, diplomatic exchange, nothing worked. In some cases I got messages that I had obtained certain the advances, but when checking the Science Manager and build queues and stuff, nothing was there. So using mod_CanPlayerHaveAdvance is 100% full proof

	29-10-2004 00:47									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Would the AI files stop the AIs requesting advances that the mod_ would stop them getting?

Or would that require loading different advancelists depending on which tree they were using? Would they accept an advance (for gold or a map, or even peace) if it wasn't on their advancelist?

Would different advancelists mean you'd need separated strategies? (which would be desirable anyway if you were doing different races)

	29-10-2004 01:13									#15
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I don't know if it would stop them from requesting it but it really wouldn't matter either: even if you accept to give it to them, they're still not getting it. The mod_ function blocks a player from actually obtaining the advance, it doesn't block him from closing a diplomatic deal or opening a goody hut with that advance or whatever.

E.g. I tested it by blocking all advances for the civ I was playing with and opened a few goody huts. One of the huts gave me the message that I'd gotten Writing, but when I checked the Science Manager, I hadn't. Same with diplomacy: the exchange seemed to normally and the opponent agreed to give me an advance, but when I checked it, I hadn't received anything. Same with me giving advances to AIs.

Of course, in theory a human player could exploit that: you could give the AI lots of advances as gifts and it would probably thinks it's getting loads of presents, while in reality it's not getting anything at all. I don't know if you could stop that by changing their advance list, that would have to be tested. But if not, I don't think it should be too hard to write SLIC code that intercepts diplomatic proposals and automatically rejects them if they include a 'bad' advance.

When you have different tech trees, you'll have to have different strategies and advancelists anyway, otherwise the AIs wouldn't know what to research...

	29-10-2004 01:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Of course, in theory a human player could exploit that: you could give the AI lots of advances as gifts and it would probably thinks it's getting loads of presents, while in reality it's not getting anything at all.

Yeah, that's where I was heading with it. You could probably give them the same advance over and over again. Depends whether they'd want it I suppose.

quote: When you have different tech trees, you'll have to have different strategies and advancelists anyway, otherwise the AIs wouldn't know what to research...

You could stick all the trees into one list, and they'd only get the ones that the SLIC let them get anyway.

	29-10-2004 01:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat You could stick all the trees into one list, and they'd only get the ones that the SLIC let them get anyway.

Well, I suppose that's possible, but it's not exactly very elegant, is it?

	29-10-2004 01:30									#18
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Elegant in that it saves a whole lot of bother

	29-10-2004 01:40									#19
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Well, if you think writing one line of SLIC code and

STRATEGY_WHATEVER {
Research ADVANCE_LIST_BLAH
StopResearch ADVANCE_LIST_STOP_RESEARCH
}

once per tech tree per personality is a whole lot of bother...

	29-10-2004 01:57									#20
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Wouldn't you also need to SLIC each civilisation to a particular set of strategies?

	29-10-2004 02:03									#21
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Well, I said you'd need one line SLIC code per tree per personality. It's actually slightly more, but still:

code:
handleevent(beginturn) {

if player personality is WHATEVER {
	if player has tree 1
		load strategy (WHATEVER_STRAT+1)
	if player has tree 2
		load strategy (WHATEVER_STRAT+2)
	...
} elseif ...

etc -- repeat for every personality and tree

	29-10-2004 02:20									#22
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Thats all sorted then. A bunch of strategies, advancelists and 50 lines of SLIC to sort the AI out, then just the tech tree to design. Sounds like fun.

	29-10-2004 02:39									#23
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"Can I ask a couple of questions re the above.

I gather that this type of function is called automatically each turn-
int_f mod_CanPlayerHaveAdvance".

I gather the answer to this question is yes?

Lots of food for thought now, thanks.

	29-10-2004 03:13									#24
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Yes.

	29-10-2004 03:51									#25
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One more quick question, please,

Can you block access to the game editor with slic? If so, whats the command?

Thanks.

	29-10-2004 05:13									#26
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No idea at all about this 'ere slic malarky, but why would you want to block the editor?

	29-10-2004 05:23									#27
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Just an idea. I have developed an ingame scoring system like CIV3 which will end the game with a win if a certain level of points is reached.

The ready access to the editor has always been a bit of a weak point in CTP2, makes the hall of fame a bit meaningless. Despite what it says, it does keep the score and put you in the hall of fame even if you access the editor after the start.

	29-10-2004 06:41									#28
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It must like you! When I last cheated it didn't even tell me my score lol

	29-10-2004 09:32									#29
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Pretty sure about it.

After cheat mode, you still have a score and a ranking in the game.

I was fidling with the game with a happiness event (-10 for 15 turns) and took no precautions and my entire empire revolted in one turn and the game ended with the loss AVI and I now have a low score in hscore.txt ({Augustus} 7390).

If you go into the editor, you get the message that your score wont be kept. If you go back into editor in that same sitting, you dont get the message again. However, if you start another sitting or load the game again and use editor, you get the message again.

Conclusion, when you load the game again, the flag that records the use of the editor must reset.

Thats why I was looking to restrict the access to the editor or at least record that it was used and adjust the score.

	29-10-2004 13:38									#30
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No, AFAIK there's no possible way to disable the scenario editor aside from altering the source code.

And yes, stankarp is right: whether or not you opened the scenario editor is only remembered for your current session, it's not stored in the savegame.