25-10-2004 21:42									#91
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ned, you still haven't explained why rummy should be held blameless for the debacle of dismantling the iraqi army.

	26-10-2004 00:21									#92
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quote: Originally posted by germanos I have no problem supporting your point . However, I have the feeling your point is the UN wouldn't support an invasion of Iraq because France is an ass, while in fact the UN wouldn't have supported such an invasion since it is against the UN-charter itself.

I have no quibble. The point I was trying to make is that Bush would not have gone after Saddam without an UN resolution.

	26-10-2004 00:49									#93
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Papa Bush wouldn't. And he is the wiser man for it.

	26-10-2004 01:30									#94
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH All UN member see looking after their own interests as their primary foriegn policy objective.

Pretty much the same thing. France has been saying this since de Gaulle

	26-10-2004 01:31									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed ned, you still haven't explained why rummy should be held blameless for the debacle of dismantling the iraqi army.

Unless he had some veto power over Bremer, which he didn't, I have no idea why he should be held responsible at all.

	26-10-2004 01:33									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Unless he had some veto power over Bremer, which he didn't, I have no idea why he should be held responsible at all.

the buck stops _______

	26-10-2004 01:34									#97
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Papa Bush wouldn't. And he is the wiser man for it.

I'm not sure even Bush II would have gone after Saddam in 1991. It took the violation of 17 resolutions and Saddam's constant resistance to teach us that he never would cooperate with the international community. We didn't know that in 1991.

	26-10-2004 01:34									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Sava the buck stops _______

State.

	26-10-2004 02:01									#99
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pretty much, you're blaming the State Department and Paul Bremer for the mess in Iraq?

If this is the case, why aren't you demanding Colin Powell's head on a platter?

	26-10-2004 02:01									#100
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Bremer was a subordinate of the President of the United States. Dear Leader had a veto if he disagreed with Bremer's policies.

In any case, Defense was strongly for the disbanding of the army. As I said earlier, Feith was probably the pointman.

	26-10-2004 02:08									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Sava the buck stops _______

President.

Ned,
Any credit or blame in Iraq goes to the person that decided we should go there.

I don't understand why you care so much for Rumsfeld, Bush, and Cheney and not at all for the american people and soldiers.

	26-10-2004 02:15									#102
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because he's not a traitor, pax.

	26-10-2004 03:06									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Bremer was a subordinate of the President of the United States. Dear Leader had a veto if he disagreed with Bremer's policies. In any case, Defense was strongly for the disbanding of the army. As I said earlier, Feith was probably the pointman.

The following was taken from a Times article last December. It doesn't seem to be consistent with the NYTimes article which lays the blame squarely on Bremer just as the White House does in the Times piece. Are Wolfowitz and Feith speaking out of school since the commanders in Iraq and the Joint Chiefs had a different view?

"Pentagon Civilian Close to Rumsfeld: "We Shouldn't Have Disbanded the (Iraqi) Army": White House aides finger Coalition Provisional Authority Administrator L. Paul Bremer for disbanding the Iraqi army. Bremer aide Walter Slocombe claims some responsibility, but it's unlikely that a Clinton-era Democrat like Slocombe would have been allowed to make such a big decision. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz says the decision to disband the army was unanimous. Asked whether it was Rumsfeld’s call, Douglas Feith, a top Rumsfeld aide, says, "You could say that." A Pentagon civilian close to Rumsfeld admits, "We shouldn't have disbanded the army."

	26-10-2004 03:08									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Pax President. Ned, Any credit or blame in Iraq goes to the person that decided we should go there. I don't understand why you care so much for Rumsfeld, Bush, and Cheney and not at all for the american people and soldiers.

I thought the decision to disband the Army was a mistake. I really want the person responsible clearly identified and fired. Most, but not all, of the evidence is point straight at Bremer. However, Wolfowitz and Feith seem to take some credit and suggest that the final call was Rumsfeld.

I think Rummy ought to go if this was in fact his decision.