22-10-2004 01:15									#1
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According to the NYTimes, Bremer's dismissing of the Army, his refusal to pay severance or salaries, his refusal to accept Colonels and Generals of the old army in the new, all contributed greatly to the insurgency that broke out last year. Virtually everyone in the military was against what Bremer did. Rumsfeld did not approve. No one above Bremer was involved in the decision approved it and many disapproved of it.

Bremer must assume full responsibility for the chaos and the insurgency resulting from his order dismissing the Army. I for one condemn you, you bastard!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/21/i...1&th&oref=login

Excerpts:

"But senior American generals were privately urging a much different approach, according to interviews with military and civilian officials. Top commanders were meeting secretly with former Iraqi officers to discuss the best way to rebuild the force and recall Iraqi soldiers back to duty when Mr. Bremer arrived in Baghdad with his plan.

"It was absolutely the wrong decision," said Col. Paul Hughes of the Army, who served as an aide to Jay Garner, a retired three-star general and the first civilian administrator of Iraq. "We changed from being a liberator to an occupier with that single decision,'' he said. "By abolishing the army, we destroyed in the Iraqi mind the last symbol of sovereignty they could recognize and as a result created a significant part of the resistance."

...

"In a memo to the Pentagon, Mr. Bremer , noted his desire that "my arrival in Iraq be marked by clear, public and decisive steps to reassure Iraqis that we are determined to eradicate Saddamism." While his main purpose was to promote the de-Baathification of Iraq, plans to abolish Mr. Hussein's army soon became part of the initiative. Mr. Slocombe, who was under secretary of defense in the Clinton administration, recommended that the Iraqi military and the Ministry of Defense be formally eliminated.

As he saw it, the Iraqi Army had gone AWOL. There were no longer intact divisions, and many military vehicles and bases had been looted. Moreover, Mr. Slocombe thought the force was corrupt and dominated by Sunni officers. He did not believe it was feasible to recall the existing army and felt there was no choice but to build a new one from scratch.

After he arrived in Iraq, Mr. Slocombe met with Mr. Naima, former Iraqi officers and General McKiernan. Mr. Slocombe thanked the Iraqi officers but made it clear that he did not view them as the nucleus of a new Iraqi command, a participant said. It was a blow not only to the Iraqis but to the American military officers who thought they were identifying senior officers to help remake the army."

...

"The role of top Bush administration officials in approving the plan is unclear. Mr. Slocombe said the decision was the subject of extensive consultations with senior Defense Department officials in Washington. A draft of Mr. Bremer's decree abolishing the army, he said, was sent to Mr. Rumsfeld before it was issued.

Lawrence Di Rita, Mr. Rumsfeld's spokesman, said in an e-mail message that the issue was not taken up by cabinet-level officials and was "definitely not one that the secretary of defense decided."

General Peter Pace of the Marines, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the Joint Chiefs were not consulted about the decision.

Condoleezza Rice, Mr. Bush's national security adviser, indicated that the idea did not originate in the National Security Council but acknowledged that the White House did not object."

	22-10-2004 01:20									#2
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Yeah, this whole mess is Bremer's fault. The guy they put in charge...

	22-10-2004 01:22									#3
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quote: Bremer's dismissing of the Army, his refusal to pay severance or salaries, his refusal to accept Colonels and Generals of the old army in the new, all contributed greatly to the insurgency that broke out last year.

That makes sense to me.

quote: Virtually everyone in the military was against what Bremer did. Rumsfeld did not approve. No one above Bremer was involved in the decision approved it and many disapproved of it. Bremer must assume full responsibility for the chaos and the insurgency resulting from his order dismissing the Army.

This, however, is called scapegoating. If Rummy and thought Bremer was wrong on this, he should have forced him to change track or fired him.

Who chose Bremer for the post?

Clearly the people doing the choosing didn't pick very well.

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 01:23									#4
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Arrian, that would require admitting they made a mistake. We all know the current administration is incapable of doing that.

-Drachasor

	22-10-2004 01:28									#5
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Bush said the only mistakes were some of his appointments.

Bremer was a mistake.

	22-10-2004 01:30									#6
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Wasn't there a guy before Bremer? Wasn't he, too, a mistake?

Or, perhaps it's that there is no one capable of doing what Bremer was expected to do. Perhaps the whole operation was deeply flawed, and thus the only possible outcome was failure?

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 01:52									#7
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Ah, the joy of scapegoatting .

	22-10-2004 01:56									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Wasn't there a guy before Bremer? Wasn't he, too, a mistake? Or, perhaps it's that there is no one capable of doing what Bremer was expected to do. Perhaps the whole operation was deeply flawed, and thus the only possible outcome was failure? -Arrian

General Garner supported the plan to recall the Army.

	22-10-2004 01:58									#9
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Good for him. But wasn't he removed because the administration thought he was doing poorly? I honestly don't remember, but I thought he left under heavy criticism.

Anyway, the main point is that while Bremer bears direct responsibility, that doesn't absolve his superiors (Rummy, and ultimately Bush).

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 02:02									#10
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Arrian, I remember at the time that admin said that Bremer was a planned replacement. I find that to be unbelievable. But given that what Bremer wanted to do with the Army was opposed by everyone in the DOD, I think that State somehow won a bureaucratic battle vs. Defense to the great harm of both Iraq and the US.

	22-10-2004 02:04									#11
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As I recall, Ned, the reason given at the time for disbanding the Army was that the Army was too politically entangled with the Baathist regime and thus had to be rebuilt from scratch (de-Baathification). This, IIRC, was a Neocon argument.

This was probably true of high ranking officers. But the rank 'n file... that was a big mistake.

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 02:09									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Bush said the only mistakes were some of his appointments. Bremer was a mistake.

How convenient that once you make an appointment to something, it completely absolves you of any future and/or past responsibility.

	22-10-2004 02:26									#13
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Ned, Bremer couldn't piss without permission. I remember Cheney talking about dismissing the Iraqi Army before the invasion was even started. Cheney pointed out how better off Costa Rica is without a military but that totally ignores that Costa Rica's in a relatively nice neighborhood and Iraq is in the worst neighborhood in the world. If the Bush boys are all talking about disbanding the Iraqi Army before the invasion was even started then how come it suddenly becomes Bremers fault? After all Bremer was micromanaged to the extreme.

Any body else think the administration is just trying to turn Bremer into a fall guy?

	22-10-2004 02:27									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah, the joy of scapegoatting .

	22-10-2004 02:40									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian As I recall, Ned, the reason given at the time for disbanding the Army was that the Army was too politically entangled with the Baathist regime and thus had to be rebuilt from scratch (de-Baathification). This, IIRC, was a Neocon argument. This was probably true of high ranking officers. But the rank 'n file... that was a big mistake. -Arrian

Maybe. However, everyone in the Pentagon seemed to oppose it because the knew disbanding the Army was more than counterproductive on a practical level.

	22-10-2004 02:40									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki How convenient that once you make an appointment to something, it completely absolves you of any future and/or past responsibility.

If Bush were to take responsibity for any errors, this should be it.

	22-10-2004 02:41									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ned, Bremer couldn't piss without permission. I remember Cheney talking about dismissing the Iraqi Army before the invasion was even started. Cheney pointed out how better off Costa Rica is without a military but that totally ignores that Costa Rica's in a relatively nice neighborhood and Iraq is in the worst neighborhood in the world. If the Bush boys are all talking about disbanding the Iraqi Army before the invasion was even started then how come it suddenly becomes Bremers fault? After all Bremer was micromanaged to the extreme. Any body else think the administration is just trying to turn Bremer into a fall guy?

If true, perhaps Cheney should be fired. The NYTimes article does not mention that this came from Cheney's desk. It seems to have been Bremer's idea.

	22-10-2004 02:46									#18
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I'm sure you know how to fire Cheney, Ned

	22-10-2004 02:49									#19
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I'm sure you know how to fire Cheney, Ned

	22-10-2004 02:52									#20
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I suppose you could also blame Lyndie Englands potty training.

	22-10-2004 03:01									#21
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If true. The NYTimes article does not link this to Cheney.

	22-10-2004 03:07									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian If Rummy and thought Bremer was wrong on this, he should have forced him to change track or fired him.

Bremer doesn't work for Rummy. He works for Powell and the President.

	22-10-2004 03:09									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ned General Garner supported the plan to recall the Army.

Garner was removed because he sat around and watched while Iraq went up in flames, instead of clamping down on the looting.

	22-10-2004 03:11									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Maybe. However, everyone in the Pentagon seemed to oppose it because the knew disbanding the Army was more than counterproductive on a practical level.

There were lots of things the Army asked for that the Administration turned down. Originally the Army wanted 350k-400k troops for the intial invasion so that they could not only defeat the Iraqi military but also effectively occupy and control the conquored territory. Cheney famously turned them down and told them to make do with 150k.

Surprise, surprise. Chaos erupted immediately after Saddam's regime fell and there were not enough troops to maintain law and order. It seems the Pentegon was right and Cheney/Bush were wrong on that issue. Now it seems Cheney/Bush were also wrong about disbanding the the Iraqi military and once again the Pentegon was correct. Why won't the stupid politicians realize they don't know what they're doing and let the military take the lead in military matters?

	22-10-2004 03:15									#25
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It was an experiment. That whole smaller, faster, better military thing. Iraq is just one big live fire training excercise.

	22-10-2004 03:28									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Bush said the only mistakes were some of his appointments. Bremer was a mistake.

The idiot and the idiot who appointed that idiot are BOTH responsible.

	22-10-2004 04:32									#27
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Well, Oerdin, 300k US troops would have been unnecessary if we had 150k Iraqis to join our 150k US. Disbanding the Iraqi Army without providing for adequate US replacements was

LUDICROUS.

	22-10-2004 05:01									#28
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The problem with leaving the Iraqi Army intact was after we left, there would be a danger of a coup by Ba'athist elements. Also, they figured that the Ba'athists problem would aid the fedeyeen and any foreign elements. They made a choice, they chose wrong. Hindsight's 20/20 though.

	22-10-2004 05:02									#29
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quote: Ah, the joy of scapegoatting

quote: How convenient that once you make an appointment to something, it completely absolves you of any future and/or past responsibility.

	22-10-2004 05:14									#30
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The scapegoat has just hit the fan