25-10-2004 09:37									#31
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http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110005741

quote: JOHN FUND ON THE TRAIL Getting Physical Union thugs target Republicans. Monday, October 11, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT We may be about to experience an election unlike any we've seen in a while. The Florida recount in 2000 raised passions and blood pressure and featured some demonstrations on both sides, but there was no violence. This year, lots of groups are jostling with each other to monitor the elections in battleground states. For its part, the AFL-CIO has promised to dispatch thousands of election monitors to battleground states to watch for any hint of trouble at polling places. From the initial reports, they may be the ones for have to be watched as potential troublemakers. Last week, in Orlando, Fla., approximately 60 union protestors stormed and ransacked the local Bush-Cheney headquarters causing considerable damage and injuring one campaign staffer, who suffered a broken wrist. According to an Orlando Police Department report, Rhyan Metzler, a field director for the Republican Party, was at the headquarters about 1 p.m. last Tuesday when 60 protestors barged in. Van Church, a 53-year old protestor, forced the door open and caused Mr. Metzler's arm to be caught in it. His left wrist was fractured in the altercation. Police say Mr. Church will be charged with two counts of battery. But Mr. Church is unrepentant. "If his wrist was fractured, it's a result of his own actions in jerking the door the way he did," he told the Orlando Sentinel. "He jerked the door out of my hand and cut it in the process." But since it is Mr. Church who is being charged, the police apparently didn't think Mr. Metzler did anything wrong. Orlando's fracas was mirrored in Miami, where police reported that more than 100 union protestors stormed the Bush-Cheney office and shoved volunteers aside. No one was charged because most of the protestors left before the police arrived. In Tampa, about 35 protestors filled the local GOP office and intimidated the elderly volunteers working there. The AFL-CIO took credit on its Web site for similar demonstrations--apparently all coordinated--in Independence, Mo., Kansas City, Mo., Dearborn, Mich., St. Paul, Minn., and West Allis, Wis. In what could be a related incident, the Bush-Cheney office in Knoxville, Tenn., had its plate-glass windows shattered by gunfire on Tuesday morning before volunteers showed up for work. Another Republican office, in Seattle, was broken into and had computer files stolen. Esmerelda Aguilar, an AFL-CIO spokesman, says Republicans are "trying to politicize [the Orlando incident] and exaggerate the event." She maintains that all of the demonstrations "were peaceful protests" designed to call attention to new Bush administration regulations on overtime pay. Rep. Tom Feeney (R., Fla.) is skeptical. He was speaker of the Florida House in 2000 and knows how important it is to address election-related problems early and not wait for Election Day. Mr. Feeney and 49 other GOP members of Congress have signed a letter asking the Justice Department to investigate if the coordinated protests violated any federal laws on protecting the rights to campaign and vote. Rep. Feeney also says the Justice Department needs to let people know it is watching this election more closely than most. "We ask that you work with state law enforcement agencies in investigating a series of voting irregularities including forgeries in voter registration forms, casting simultaneous ballots in different states (double voting), and absentee voter fraud. Such activities disenfranchise those who properly register to vote and cast valid ballots." Look for the Justice Department to become a major political football in this election. Already, its warnings that terrorists may well try to disrupt the Nov. 2 election is being greeted skeptically by some local election officials. New Mexico Secretary of State Rebecca Vigil-Giron, a Democrat, is openly asking if Attorney General John Ashcroft's warnings are part of a GOP effort to suppress voter turnout. Last week, Democrats responded by creating their own SWAT teams of lawyers that will be dispatched to any place where voting problems are recorded. One issue certain to be disputed will be provisional ballots, which are cast when someone doesn't find his name on the registration rolls. Such ballots are set aside and verified later. A flood of provisional ballot lists could tilt the election in close states one way or the other with Democrats demanding that officials "count every vote" and Republicans questioning the validity of some of the ballots. California Assemblywoman Bonnie Garcia, a Republican, says she has found 3,000 new duplicate registrations in her district. "The current process today is really Third World conditions," she told CNN's Lou Dobbs program. When asked what she thinks about Democratic charges that her calls for investigations into the duplicate registrations will scare voters away from the polls, she refuses to back down. "You're damn right, I'm going to try to scare away the crooks." Let's hope the lawyers don't take over this election's aftermath the way they did in Florida in 2000. To prevent that the Justice Department needs to step in now and enforce everyone's civil rights. That means protecting campaign workers from intimidation as well as preventing fraudulent votes from canceling out legitimate ballots. Allowing double voting, ballots to be cast from the graveyard and those who have been disqualified because of criminal convictions to dilute the process only calls into question the sanctity of the election itself. It's no way to run a modern democracy.

	25-10-2004 09:38									#32
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1237534/posts

quote: National Trend of Threatening Protests Comes to PA Republican HQ Republican State Committee of Pennsylvania Website ^ | October, 06 2004 | Republican State Committee Chairman Alan Novak Posted on 10/06/2004 9:06:27 PM PDT by blogbat October 6, 2004 Contact: Dan Hayward Executive Director National Trend of Threatening Protests Comes to PA Democrat Protest in Westmoreland County Turns Ugly- Police Respond Harrisburg – Today, Republican State Committee Chairman Alan Novak demanded his Democrat counterpart, Chairman T.J. Rooney, condemn the threatening protest in Westmoreland County and call upon all Democrat and affiliated campaign groups to stop similar campaign protests that may be planned across Pennsylvania. “This is an outrage of the highest order. There is no place for violence, threats or disorderly conduct in campaigns," exclaimed Novak. “With similar events happening across the nation, it is clear that some think this kind of action is condoned. I demand that Chairman Rooney call to a halt any and all threatening protests and that he urge affiliated third party groups to do the same." “Democrat protestors have every right to voice their opinion and be heard. But, when their actions become intimidating, unlawful and even violent, the perpetrators should be arrested and their leaders should be brought to justice. I will take every step possible to ensure that this happens in Pennsylvania to protect the peaceful volunteers that are working on behalf of the Republican Party and our candidates," added Novak. This morning, a Democrat protest in Greensburg, Westmoreland County, turned threatening and potentially violent when a protestor stormed the Republican Victory Center shouting obscenities and intimidating young female volunteers. Police were called to the scene. This type of intimidation mirrors the actions of other protests across the nation. Yesterday, an Orlando Bush/Cheney office was ransacked by Democrat protestors. In Tennessee, a Bush/Cheney office was fired upon breaking windows and destroying property. “This is an embarrassing, ugly and despicable display. It is campaigning at its worst. I trust that Chairman Rooney will deplore these acts as inexcusable and call to a halt any others that may be planned," concluded Novak.

	25-10-2004 09:39									#33
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I'm sure TMM has more.

	25-10-2004 09:41									#34
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I think Demorats is as apt as Repugs.

	25-10-2004 09:41									#35
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And you haven't answered a single question of mine yet, NYE. Exactly what harm to the election has ACORN caused? Are people not able to vote? Are people able to vote twice? Are ineligible people able to vote? In all three of those questions, the answer is no. So what effect is ACORN having on the electoral process? None. Are they committing a crime? Yes. Will it affect the election? No. Should the be investigated and those guilty of wrong doing punished? Yes.

So honestly, why the hystrionics over this, but silence of real people being disenfranchised? Having your right to vote taken away is far more serious than fake registrations that can't be used.

	25-10-2004 09:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I think Demorats is as apt as Repugs.

Yeah, but Dumbs is easier.

	25-10-2004 09:44									#37
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And you haven't answered a single question of mine yet, NYE. Exactly what harm to the election has ACORN caused? Are people not able to vote? Are people able to vote twice? Are ineligible people able to vote? In all three of those questions, the answer is no. So what effect is ACORN having on the electoral process? None. Are they committing a crime? Yes. Will it affect the election? No. Should the be investigated and those guilty of wrong doing punished? Yes. So honestly, why the hystrionics over this, but silence of real people being disenfranchised? Having your right to vote taken away is far more serious than fake registrations that can't be used.

Voter intimidation has no effect on the election?

First link.

	25-10-2004 09:45									#38
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So, let me know when you find some evidence of the Dumbs actually doing something that disenfranchises someone. Then I'll have the same righteous indignation towards both sides.

	25-10-2004 09:46									#39
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Fraudulently taking another citiznes vote.

quote: Some voter registration application forms are completely bogus. Others belong to legitimate voters, who have had one or two facts changed that could affect their registration when they show up at the polls November 2nd. Tom Stanislawski registered to vote six years ago. But this summer, someone signed him up again and changed his party affiliation. "My concern would be I'd walk in November 2nd and be unable to vote," he said.

Second link.

	25-10-2004 09:47									#40
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Voter intimidation has no effect on the election? First link.

Is there any evidence that people didn't vote because of this? Plus, unfortunately, this is apparently legal. It is disgusting, repulsive, and unethical, but it is legal, and apparently ineffective.

	25-10-2004 09:48									#41
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Voter intimidation is apparently 'legal' in banana republics too.

Isn't it one of the things 'you people' constantly complain about when decrying them?

	25-10-2004 09:51									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Is there any evidence that people didn't vote because of this? Plus, unfortunately, this is apparently legal. It is disgusting, repulsive, and unethical, but it is legal, and apparently ineffective.

It sounds like you're see-sawing between denouncing voter intimidation and white-washing it.



Which one will it be?
(I go with denouncing)

	25-10-2004 09:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Fraudulently taking another citiznes vote.

That won't stop them from voting in the general election. Bigger problem would if they changed address forms, but only if it has the old address on the form. If not, the old voter registration is still valid. Something we just found out in Florida is that as many as 65,000 Floridians are registered in Florida and another state, and in 2000, more than 2,500 of them voted in both locations.

Plus, we have provisional voting, so if you're supposed to be able to vote in a district, but your info is screwed up, you can stll vote.

A further point would be, since most of these people are Democrats, then it is Democratic voters getting screwed. This is hardly a fiendish plot by the DP to win the election then.

Thinking before being outraged!

	25-10-2004 09:52									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And you haven't answered a single question of mine yet, NYE. Exactly what harm to the election has ACORN caused? Are people not able to vote? Are people able to vote twice? Are ineligible people able to vote? In all three of those questions, the answer is no. So what effect is ACORN having on the electoral process? None. Are they committing a crime? Yes. Will it affect the election? No. Should the be investigated and those guilty of wrong doing punished? Yes.

quote: Former ACORN Miami-Dade field director Mac Stuart has declared an intent to sue ACORN and has made charges of rampant voter fraud operations. Stuart was employed and specifically tasked by ACORN to generate 103,000 new voter registrations from Dade County. He reports that ACORN threw out Republican registrations while paying for Democratic ones. Stuart also charges that ACORN targeted ex-cons and that he personally set up registration tables outside the Miami police department and Dade County jail. He went on to state, "The voter registration project has been operating illegally since it started."

Third link.

	25-10-2004 09:53									#45
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Voter intimidation is apparently 'legal' in banana republics too.

I suggest you reread your posted article. It was completely legal.

	25-10-2004 09:54									#46
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quote: Fraudulently taking another citiznes vote. quote: Some voter registration application forms are completely bogus. Others belong to legitimate voters, who have had one or two facts changed that could affect their registration when they show up at the polls November 2nd. Tom Stanislawski registered to vote six years ago. But this summer, someone signed him up again and changed his party affiliation. "My concern would be I'd walk in November 2nd and be unable to vote," he said. Second link.

Changing party affiliation could only potentially disenfranchise someone during a primary (assuming they want to vote in primary whose party they registered for, and that the state has closed primaries). No primary elctions are being held right now.

	25-10-2004 09:56									#47
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Who gives a **** that voter intimidation is legal or not? It does not lessen the outrage of voter intimidation, in my opinion.

	25-10-2004 09:57									#48
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What happens when the fellow turns up at the poll and finds he has already voted?

	25-10-2004 09:57									#49
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither quote: Former ACORN Miami-Dade field director Mac Stuart has declared an intent to sue ACORN and has made charges of rampant voter fraud operations. Stuart was employed and specifically tasked by ACORN to generate 103,000 new voter registrations from Dade County. He reports that ACORN threw out Republican registrations while paying for Democratic ones. Stuart also charges that ACORN targeted ex-cons and that he personally set up registration tables outside the Miami police department and Dade County jail. He went on to state, "The voter registration project has been operating illegally since it started." Third link.

Finally! Thank you. This is something that is actually serious. I would point out, however, yet again, that ACORN is not part of the Democratic Party. Nor was it hired by the Democratic Party, unlike the groups hired by the GOP, which engaged in trashing oppponents' registrations. So in this dispicable case, you have an outside group disenfranchising people.

Am I minimizing the crime committed here? No. But the Democrats have nothing to do with this.

	25-10-2004 09:59									#50
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Yeah, right.

	25-10-2004 10:00									#51
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Who gives a **** that voter intimidation is legal or not?

If it's not illegal, then it's not cheating. It falls into the dirty tricks catagory. I could mention all kinds of Republican dirty tricks, but they are also legal, and so right-wingers have tendency to say, so what.

	25-10-2004 10:00									#52
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah, right.

ACORN is a communist organization.

	25-10-2004 10:02									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If it's not illegal, then it's not cheating. It falls into the dirty tricks catagory. I could mention all kinds of Republican dirty tricks, but they are also legal, and so right-wingers have tendency to say, so what.

So because it's legal then, we should not be outraged by voter intimidation?




And by the way, I'm not arguing this point because I think Democrats have the exclusive participation in corruption and that Republicans do not.

	25-10-2004 10:03									#54
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What happens when the fellow turns up at the poll and finds he has already voted?

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this was the intention of the people signing up people multiple times? Or, in the several articles, has the explanation always been, the registrars were getting paid per registration, so they were making up extra ones for extra money.

Unless the state can prove that this occured at the direction of ACORN, ACORN actually can press charges against those who committed these acts, since it is fraud. ACORN was being cheated out of money for fake work.

	25-10-2004 10:03									#55
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quote: What happens when the fellow turns up at the poll and finds he has already voted?

What are you referring to?

	25-10-2004 10:08									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So because it's legal then, we should not be outraged by voter intimidation?

Who says I'm not. The point is, it's not election fraud. If I get in a line to vote early, and someone gives me ****, guess what, I can still vote. I'm annoyed, but I can vote. If I'm actually intimidated, where I feel I'm being threatened, then I can have them charged with assault. I can also decline to vote early, and instead return on Nov 2 and vote free from legal intimidation.

	25-10-2004 10:10									#57
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Well that's fine -- voter intimidation is not election fraud.

	25-10-2004 10:12									#58
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Anyway, I doubt that the aforementioned intimidation has been organized or permitted by Democratic officials.

I mean, it's just giving fuel to people like ML who could end up not voting for them...

	25-10-2004 10:14									#59
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The GOP has a standard trick it pulls in Black districts, where it hires security guards and dresses them up to look similiar to cops, who then start hasseling people for ID, etc. Anyone who has had bad experiences with the law, or may be wanted by the law (they still have a right to vote), tend to leave without voting. It's dirty, but not illegal.

	25-10-2004 10:15									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The GOP has a standard trick it pulls in Black districts, where it hires security guards and dresses them up to look similiar to cops, who then start hasseling people for ID, etc. Anyone who has had bad experiences with the law, or may be wanted by the law (they still have a right to vote), tend to leave without voting. It's dirty, but not illegal.

despiscable