25-10-2004 06:00									#1
	Request to our FAM & Consuls Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

As it appears that PAL has a bug up their ass, and as Con in gone for a while, I will take up the roll of discussing with them the land split.

I sent them a note earlier, responding to PAL's whining in the same terms. I was tempted to tell them to shove it, but in the spirit of trying to work things out with them, I only half told them to kiss off and did that in a nice way (IMHO). However, I need a few things to continue:

-Will someone please look into the UN rules to see if we can exchange screen shots of areas we both have explored, and do so via the UN so there is no question of us violating the UN rules.

-Will someone check the UN rules about disclosing territory. I want to trade a count with PAL such as 3 hill tiles, 21 grassland tiles, 4 mountain tiles, etc.

-Will someone write a note to CDG similar to the following "We have X number of swords, x number of archers, etc. about to invade you. We offer you amnisty if you surrender all your cities to us this turn, disband all your military units, send us all your workers, and gold. We offer you a place on our team for round 2 (or earlier if possible) in exchange for making this quick and easy." We do this the same turn we march troops into their territory, but we DO NOT declair war on them. We let our first attack be the declaration of war. No AI to worry about our reputation with, and if they attack our army, I don't think we get the big hit on happyness.

Secondly, we can also have them attack all of PAL and kill off that horse army for us in exchange for allowing them on our team, but that is too underhanded for my tastes.

	25-10-2004 06:09									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

GK, good letter to FP

The UN rules for this game are so long and complex that it really isn't worth it to read them. What I will do is send an email to the admins and just ask them the questions we need answered.

Before the invasion, right before we make our move to invade, I think we may want to have a chat with CDG and explain to them in terms that you have just spelled out, what is about to happen. The most they could do is poprush units which they would do anyhow upon seeing our attackers.

I think it's unlikely that they'll take the deal, but if we try to talk to them in chat and treat them like friends and human beings, we have a slim chance of them accepting. If nothing else, we lose the least amount of rep in the surprise attack. I'll volunteer to do this for our team if others agree that it's a wise move.

--Togas

	25-10-2004 14:14									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree with the idea. If we tell them that PAL is after them too they may be more... cooperative

	25-10-2004 16:12									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That's quite a daring and hugely interesting idea re: CDG, GK. Thanks for this!

However, we need to consider this for sure. This will mean (the biggy) no GA for certain should they accept, the vague possibility of worse relations with PAL (not so much an issue, I think)... and maybe impossible without a war of some kind - I don't think you can gift away your capital. However, I guess this is a minor concern, as we could roll up to an undefended capital and take it.

Are there other things to consider here? If it's just the GA thing, we could trigger it with Wonders at a later date when we have more sprawl and thus would get more out of it. This would only take one of eg Colossus, Lighthouse, Magellan's, Smith's to satisfy the Commerce attribute and one of the Great Library, Mausoleum, Newton's and ToE for the science trait. Let's say Colossus in Poseidon's Harbour and then maybe Newton's sometime in the far future, or even the Mausoleum just for the GA (as it's possible it won't be built seeing as its effects are tiny).

	25-10-2004 19:21									#5
	Re: Request to our FAM & Consuls Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by GodKing Secondly, we can also have them attack all of PAL and kill off that horse army for us in exchange for allowing them on our team, but that is too underhanded for my tastes.

I agree on all the above that GK posted except for the quote above: And I agree to it with two conditions:

1. We tell PAL what we are doing.

2. We do not do the second part. Lets try and NOT get TOO cute here. PAL is the big boy on the block whether we like it or not. Doing something like this could lead to PAL finding out and if that happens I can almost guarentee that the three teams from this game moving to game 2 are PAL, GWT, and BAT. Because doing that would be stabbing our ally in the back and my guess is in PAL's mind that would be a major breach of the alliance.

Its time to face reality folks, and if F-P is correct on his intell estimate that the other continent is NOT cooperating fully, we would be very ill advised to do something that could really damage our alliance with PAL.

And lets think about "CDG killing PAL's Horse Army" for a second. Do you REALLY think CDG could even do it????
Really?

	26-10-2004 01:47									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

CDG was weak to us before our upgrades and recent militarization. They have no Horse connection or Iron. It would be Horses against Archers at best. Siding with CDG at this stage would be nothing short of suicide.

	26-10-2004 02:52									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt CDG was weak to us before our upgrades and recent militarization. They have no Horse connection or Iron. It would be Horses against Archers at best. Siding with CDG at this stage would be nothing short of suicide.

Im glad someone else shares my reality

	26-10-2004 04:34									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't think there's a one of us that thinks that we can beat PAL with CDG's help. Believe me, if I thought we had a shot, I'd push for it, but I don't.

I consider our deal with PAL a deal with the devil, but a necessary deal for us to increase our chances of moving onto round 2.

--Togas

	26-10-2004 04:39									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

And why exactly are they the devil?

	26-10-2004 05:43									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree. Not only is the idea a very sneaky one, and underhanded, but it is also likely to fail. And on top of it, it would actually help PAL out a bit as they will not have that huge unit support.

	26-10-2004 09:08									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'd suggest, in the spirit of increasing communication as stated in GK's well-written response, that we at least contact PAL about talking to CDG about surrender. Especially after that last 'friendly letter,' I'd rather not get on their bad side with border negotiations on the horizon.

Otherwise, I agree with the previously voiced sentiments.

	27-10-2004 00:17									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I agree with Oct's assesment.

	27-10-2004 01:19									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yes I obviously agree with OCT_X as well.

And thats one of my stipulations to concur with the overall plan.