25-10-2004 23:58									#1
	Diplomacy and Tributes Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Demanding Tribute

One of the important aspects of diplomacy is getting tribute from the AI. Over the time I have done some research on this topic and I think there is enough interesting information to share.

1. Prerequisites for demanding Tribute:

a) Relative Military Strength

The decisive factor for tributes is what I call Relative Military Strength (RMS). It is the result of 2 factors:

- Military strength of human player: sum of the attack values of all units on the AIīs home continent

in relation to

- Military strength of AI: number of units with an attack value on the AIīs home continent

RMS = Military strength of human player /Military strength of AI

The AI will give in to your demand, if your military strength is higher than the AIīs (RMS > 1 or 100%). If the military strength of the human player is equal or lower than the AIīs, the AI will demand tribute first and reject the human players demands.

The AI offers tribute for peace, if the military strength of the human player is 2 (200%) or higher (for modifications see the table under determinig tributes).

Note: Sea units are counted if they are in a harbour on the same continent. Air units donīt have to be in a city but on the same continent. RMS is calculated at the beginning of the turn. Events during the tum (e.g. units land on AI continent, units lost) will will be taken into account next turn.

b) Government

There is no tribute option under Republic and Democracy for the human player. Tribute can be demanded under all other forms of government (including anarchy).
The AI demands tribute under all forms of government

c) Treasury/Techs

Gold as a tribute is given only when the AI treasury has a minimum of 50g, otherwise you will always receive a tech (if available). The AI demands tribute only if the human players treasury has a minimum of 50g.

d) 8 Turn Cycle

The AI will pay tribute only if a minimum of 8 turns passed since peace was concluded.

e) War and Alliances

Obviously no tribute is given in a state of war. It may be offered for truce, though. In an alliance no tribute can be demanded. Instead gifts can be asked for.


2. Determining Tributes

Tributes are calculated. There is no random factor.

Multiplier: the multiplier for demanded tributes is 50g, for tributes offered for peace 100g.

Maximum tribute: of the AI treasury only full multipliers are considered, example: AI treasury 230g, multiplier 50g = max. tribute 200g

For practical purposes the following table might be helpful. It also shows the pattern. Values are: Human players military strength/ AI military strength.

Entries in order: RMS in %, values, offered for peace, paid when demanded
100 1:1 none none
100 2:2 none none
100 3:3 none none
100 6:6 none none
120 6:5 none 100
133 4:3 none 100
140 7:5 none 100
140 14:10 none 100
140 42:30 none 100
150 3:2 none 100
150 9:6 none 100
150 15:10 none 100
150 30:15 none 100
160 8:5 none 100
160 16:10 none 100
160 24:15 100 150
166 5:3 none 100
175 7:4 none 100
175 14:8 100 150
180 9:5 100 150
190 19:10 100 150
200 2:1 none 100
200 4:2 none 100
200 6:3 100 150
200 8:4 100 150
200 10:5 100 150
200 14:7 100 150
200 16:8 100 150
200 18:9 100 150
200 20:10 100 150
200 22:11 100 150
200 26:13 100 150
200 30:15 100 150
200 40:20 100 150
220 11:5 100 150
220 22:10 200 200
233 7:3 100 150
233 14:6 200 200
240 12:5 200 200
250 5:2 100 150
250 10:4 200 200
250 15:6 200 200
250 20:8 200 200
275 11:4 200 200
300 3:1 100 150
300 6:2 200 200
300 9:3 200 200
300 12:4 200 200
300 15:5 300 250
300 21:7 300 250
320 16:5 300 250
333 10:3 300 250
333 20:6 300 250
366 11:3 300 250
366 22:6 400 300
400 4:1 200 200
400 8:2 300 250
400 12:3 400 300
400 16:4 400 300
400 20:5 400 300
420 21:5 500 350
460 23:5 500 350
480 24:5 600 400
500 5:1 300 250
500 10:2 400 300
500 15:3 500 350
500 20:4 600 400
500 25:5 600 400
500 30:6 600 400
533 16:3 600 400
600 6:1 400 300
600 12:2 600 400
600 18:3 700 450
600 24:4 700 450
700 7:1 500 350
700 14:2 700 450
700 21:3 800 500
700 28:4 900 550
all values tested in 2.42 in BC years with a sufficient AI treasury.


Modifiers:

- There is also a 16 turn cycle: the AI will pay 50% less tribute between turn 8 and turn 15 since peace was concluded.
- Until 3400 BC demanded tributes are 50% lower.
- Truce (peace rejected): - 50%
- Great Wall and United Nations: no tribute offered for peace, no gold on demanded tributes (tech as tribute is still possible)

3. Factors without Influence:

- Power Rating
- Attitude (other than causing war); attitude is influenced by RMS, though.
- Units on sea or on other continents
- Number of cities

4. Practical Use:

A few examples:

It is relatively easy for the human player to get a higher RMS as the AI units are just counted by numbers. An extreme example: 2 warriors and one horse (sum of attack values = 4) are rated higher than 3 AI musketeers (number of units = 3) and tribute will be paid. If the AI is not willing to pay, you simply have to build a few more units and try again.

To get tributes from an AI on a different continent you can ship some units with a good attack factor there.

If your sea units (with an attack factor i.e. a trireme) are idle, they should wait in a harbour to improve your RMS.

It is also possible to get information about the approximate number of units the AI has from the tribute that has been received (or rejected). Example: tribute given is 200g, human military strenght is 15: the AI wonīt have more than 6 military units on this continent.

If the AI offers peace it is safe to assume that the human player is stronger. If you expect to be at least 2 times stronger it is best to reject peace and then take the tribute offered for peace. You can demand tribute again the same turn you conclude peace (while the diplomatic screen is still open) and the AI will pay a full tribute again (assuming the treasury is not empty, yet). The 8 turn cycle (where no tributes are paid) begins in the next turn.

Zenon

	26-10-2004 01:43									#2
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Nice to see some qualitative measurements for something that was generally used though judgement.
(knowing if you were strong enough and asked frequently enough you could empty their treasury)

What if the AI is spread across continents? Does it use the continent rating of the one where it's capital is?

	26-10-2004 02:43									#3
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Thanks for the tests and info, Zenon.

From my own limited tests, I had concluded that it was just the relative number of units, and that you just had to outnumber the AI on their home continent.

It's good to know about that 8-16 turn time period of reduced tribute too, since it's better get more tribute by waiting a bit rather than risk being cut off by becoming too chatty.


I might add some info on gifts, since I did some testing on this a few years ago:

1) There is also an 8 turn waiting period for gifts after establishing an alliance, with one exception being the chance of getting a gift during the same session the alliance was established.

I did not test for the relative size of gifts for the 8-16 turn period after establishing the alliance, but in a game with such symmetry, I believe the same reduction you discovered for tribute would apply. Iwould bet that the gift amounts would also follow the same pattern you have described for tribute.

2) As with an AI's willingness to become an ally, gifts depend very much on relative power ratings. Once your own power rating gets higher than the AI's, it will stop giving, but if it dips below the AI's later, gifts are once more available. This seems to work like clockwork once the initial waiting period is over.

	26-10-2004 04:01									#4
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Great analysis!

I will often stay in Monarchy a little longer than normal when I'm sharing a big continent with the AI, thanks to the tribute tactic. Taxes can be shut off while the tribute coins flow in, and luxuries increased so as to celebrate and pick up trade arrows as a Republic. No free growth, but no shield support issues, either.

Also - tribute can compensate for the fact that Camel delivery bonuses are a lot poorer when the continent is shared with your trade partner. (Minus the free beakers, but you can't have everything, unfortunately...)

	26-10-2004 04:01									#5
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Rah,

I had tried to find this out, too. AI cities and units on different continents did not change the outcome. In other words only the units on the home continent of the AI are taken into account. Transfering the AI capital to a different continent seemed not to change anything, either. My conclusion from the limited tests on this issue is, that the AI gets a continent number at the beginning of the game. Another possibility would be the majority of cities, but it seems unlikely.

Solo,

the 8 turn cycle seems to be the same for tributes and gifts. I agree that it is likely that there is also a prolonged 16 turn period where gifts are diminished.

The influence of the power rating on gifts was also my experience, though I never tested it. But I tested repeatedly if there is any influence on tributes. But even a supreme AI would give tribute to a much lower rated human player, if the military strength was higher.

Thanks for the comments.

Zenon

	26-10-2004 04:49									#6
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Yes, I concur that power rating has no influence on tribute.

I have one other question. Did you run any tests where the AI had techs not yet obtained by the human player?

	26-10-2004 05:17									#7
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A new use for a boatload of crusaders
Nice to have "scientific" information to improve our terrible deeds.
Thank you, Zenon.

	26-10-2004 12:29									#8
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Thanks, STYOM. I agree that tributes are an important factor for the decision to switch to republic. There may be a possibility to get bonus deliveries and tributes from a different continent if you expand early to another continent and build cities and units there. It is not so difficult to get a better military strength on the new continent and then you have both, the bonus deliveries from your original cities and the tributes from the AI continent.

quote: Originally posted by solo I have one other question. Did you run any tests where the AI had techs not yet obtained by the human player?

Yes, I did, Solo. The AI "usually" gives gold, even if there are techs available. But I donīt know why you sometimes receive a tech instead of gold (unless there is less than 50g in the treasury). An untested theory is that it depends on how the tech is valued by the AI and if your demand of tribute hits this value you would get the tech instead.

Thanks, La Fayette. BTW, why is it I am not astonished that you like the aspect about a shipload of crusaders?

Zenon

	26-10-2004 19:27									#9
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This is helpful on determining when to drop out of Democracy for a turn to reap the benefits of tribute.
Sometimes I did it too early, even though my intuition was usually pretty good on this.

If I ever go back to playing SP, this will be useful. We just need the appropriate challange.

	27-10-2004 02:10									#10
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Over a year ago there was a theory that you needed at least one city on the AI continent in order to demand tribute, ie that a "boatload of crusaders" without a settler or city on the same continent would never permit tribute. Did you test situations where the RMS was high but there was no human city on the AI continent?

	27-10-2004 09:26									#11
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Zenon, this is nice. I love to see that after about eight years, there's still the possibility of codifying new information about the game!

I've always assumed that my reputation affected my ability to get tribute. I mean, if three civs recently paid me tribute and then I attacked them all, the AI would have to be pretty dumb to pay me tribute yet again. Not that it isn't, but ....

Did you check on effects of reputation, as opposed to attitude?

	27-10-2004 11:14									#12
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Great stuff Zenon

One "house rule" I usually play by is to remain spotless at all times. It is relatively easy to get the AI to declare war by demanding tribute. But did you look at exactly when (ie under what circumstances) the AI will respond to a demand for tribute with a declaration of war? It doesn't seem to be related to military strength. In one game, the last remaining AI civ with a single city declared war on me!

Also (I expect most people know this), you can get the AI to withdraw its troops by demanding tribute. Is it more or less likely to be effective this way compared with simply asking them to go?

RJM at Sleeper's

	27-10-2004 13:04									#13
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quote: Originally posted by rah If I ever go back to playing SP, this will be useful. We just need the appropriate challange.

Rah, why not the tournament that just started? Itīs a challenge and you could find out if itīs appropriate. And think of the Headlines: "Rah playing a SP game again! "

Elephant, my tests on a different continent worked without founding a city there. You just have to wait until the next turn after landing your units to get the new RMS calculated. Also having an AI city on the human players continent didnīt change anything.

Thanks, debeest. You get tributes even when you are down to atrocious, but I havenīt run specific tests, if there is a modifier. But I donīt think so.

RJM, thanks for the comment. Declaration of war was not in my tests, either. From my experience it is related with attitude and I agree that RMS is not the decisive factor. It may have an influence in combination with attitude, though. If the AI is on icy or lower you will usually get a declaration of war when demanding tribute. Also, as is well known, there are circumstances that make the AI very aggressive, like building a spaceship. But RMS does influence attitude. If your RMS is higher attitude tends to go up to uncooperative or stabilizes on higher levels. If your RMS is lower, as is often the case in ELGīs attitude is going down (faster).
I didnīt test when AI troops are on human players territory, but I tried if units threatening AI cities would change anything. Again, the results were the same.

Zenon

	27-10-2004 19:21									#14
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quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers Great stuff Zenon Also (I expect most people know this), you can get the AI to withdraw its troops by demanding tribute. Is it more or less likely to be effective this way compared with simply asking them to go? RJM at Sleeper's

Yup. Withdrawal of troops seems to be "embedded" in the tribute-demand response. The use of tribute demand as a catch-all may have the unintended consequence of provoking a war, however, whereas, just asking that AI to leave would not.

That is something I found in a past game (probably an ELG). I noted the incident and went back to the saves later and briefly tested using the different query. It was only the one instance and only a five trial test, but each result was the same. The troop was removed and there was no declaration of war (where war was the original result). This is not a definitive test but it is an indication to me to be careful using a tribute demand when all I really want is troop removal.

This next bit is more hazy for me; I just don't recall clearly. How often have you gotten tribute AND troop removal together?? Even when MPE shows lots of available gold, isn't it the case that the discussion is ended when a troop is removed and the tribute is not given?? I can only recall a few instances where both MIGHT have happened, but as I say, it is all very hazy. Perhaps results are different between v2.42 and MPGE.

Monk

	27-10-2004 22:33									#15
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My limited experience supports your observation, Monk: it's either troop withdrawal OR tribute, but not both.

	27-10-2004 23:45									#16
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Ushhhh!
Don't repeat it: the Monk is trying to obtain the withdrawal of Russian troops.
(I wonder why )

	28-10-2004 01:49									#17
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Ushhhh! Don't repeat it: the Monk is trying to obtain the withdrawal of Russian troops. (I wonder why )

I wish!! Am I a dunce or is there no diplomacy available on the road to Moscow??

Monk still

	28-10-2004 02:08									#18
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I get withdrawal AND gold fairly often, so this is another thing worth a few tests. Next time the situation comes up I suggest each of us make a save and do a few tests later after completing the games.

	28-10-2004 02:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by solo I get withdrawal AND gold fairly often, so this is another thing worth a few tests. Next time the situation comes up I suggest each of us make a save and do a few tests later after completing the games.

Good idea!!

I may have had this happen too; I just don't recall it being very often.

Monk

	28-10-2004 02:37									#20
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Zenon, I may play SP again under the right circumstances but I would have to reeducate myself. The Current SP players have a lot of this stuff down to a science. MP leads to more intuition and reaction, which are not desireable traits in SP. I'm now a bit sloppy but quick.

	28-10-2004 03:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Am I a dunce or is there no diplomacy available on the road to Moscow?? Monk still

...a dunce? certainly not!
No diplomacy available AFAIK
(but I felt I had to make that joke =)

	28-10-2004 03:17									#22
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quote: Originally posted by rah Zenon, I may play SP again under the right circumstances but I would have to reeducate myself.

Come on, rah!
You have 3 weeks left for reeducation... and Zenon has found such a nice start for you (and the rest of us)

	28-10-2004 05:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by rah Zenon, I may play SP again under the right circumstances but I would have to reeducate myself. The Current SP players have a lot of this stuff down to a science. MP leads to more intuition and reaction, which are not desireable traits in SP. I'm now a bit sloppy but quick.

We are playing mostly conquest now in support of Peaster, who has undertaken writing a guide. These games only require broad experience, and not so much of the "science" used in the more micro-intensive EL games.

In EL games, I can easily spend an hour or more on many of the moves, but in EC, I completed the October tournament game in an afternoon's play. These contests are challenging and more importantly, fun. Why not join in and perhaps add a new idea or two to help augment Peaster's work in progress?

	28-10-2004 10:47									#24
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quote: Originally posted by solo I get withdrawal AND gold fairly often, so this is another thing worth a few tests. Next time the situation comes up I suggest each of us make a save and do a few tests later after completing the games.

I have had both gold and withdrawal, but I'm not sure I would say "fairly often". Unfortunately my requests for tribute are fairly random, but my impression is that you get the withdrawal whenever there is no delaration of war. I'd assumed that tribute was being paid as frequently as it should be, but until Zenon's post I had no idea how frequently that was.

Monk's observation is interesting. I've never replayed a case where I got a declaration of war. I might try it next time. Presumably if asking the AI to leave is more likely to work than demanding tribute, you should ask them to leave first, then demand tribute on the next turn whenever there is a risk of a war that you don't want.

RJM at Sleeper's

	29-10-2004 00:44									#25
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I may have to check it out.

But I love 2x1x so much. I might have to build on *gasp* grassland.

	30-10-2004 10:47									#26
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Could you say a little more about how the 8 turn cycle works?

In my current game, during a period of cease-fire I got money tributes on 4 successive turns (and another time 3 money tributes followed by a technology). I presume the 8 turn cycle doesn't apply to cease-fires.

RJM at Sleeper's

	30-10-2004 18:42									#27
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RJM,

I believe calling it a cycle is a misnomer. I think it's more like an initial waiting period, which only occurs once per civ. However, more exhaustive tests may prove that this supposition is incorrect.

	31-10-2004 12:55									#28
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quote: Originally posted by rah But I love 2x1x so much. I might have to build on *gasp* grassland.

Rah, have a look at the starting position. No grassland, but lots of shields. This must be your game!

RJM, thatīs right, the 8 turn period is triggered by a peace agreement. Under truce or once the period is over there seems to be no limitation and you can demand tribute repeatedly. It seems that having peace a second time after a war has the same effect, but I am not sure as it is also possible that the former war changes the outcome.

I have done a little test on how the AI home continent is determined. As I thought the AI gets a continent number when it is started or when it respawns. It doesnīt matter where the capital is founded.

Zenon

	08-11-2004 09:34									#29
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Another rule: If the ai is hostile, you will not get tribute, sometimes you will be ignored, or sometimes war.
After peace is agreed, you can demand tribute to get units removed. I don't think the ai has ever declared war right away.
If the ai offers a cease fire right away without demands, you can usually reject it and get some gold. You will always get more gold if they have it if you reject the follow on peace offer.

	14-02-2005 19:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by rah What if the AI is spread across continents? Does it use the continent rating of the one where it's capital is?

Rah, I play LAN MP games with my friends which include the AI. Judging by my experience, if the AI spans across continents it will only pay tribute to you if all conditions listed below are met.

1. Your power rating on on that continent is greater than that of the AI as per Zenon's formula.
2. You have at least one city on that continent.
3. The AI has at least two cities on that continent thus considering it a home continent. One AI city will not suffice.

Common exploits of this mechanism in our games:

1. If you don't have an AI on your continent find one quickly and settle on his mainland immediately. Build as many units as you can, expand like crazy, bring more units from the mainland and the AI will start to pay. They are usually full if left alone for some time (1000+ gold).
2. If an AI has settled on your continent allow him to build another city so that harvesting can begin.


If your military power is much greater than that of the AI, the AI will pay tribute every turn.