26-10-2004 07:12									#1
	Reflections on completing Planescape:Torment Suffering from ads?

Im not sure what to make of it really.

It was definitely a well crafted piece of interactive fiction, even if (as i say elsewhere) the ending feels a little weak, despite all the cutscenes, etc.

I feel handicapped in discussing it, as I havent really played much interactive fiction - this, BG, a little Myst, and a couple of text adventures. Its hard for me to say how this compares as interactive fiction, which matters since that is what PST is trying to be, apparently.

A few things first. Its definitely to dark for my tastes. Im willing to struggle with the meaning of death, but not in the context of a game. Ambitious, and im sure it works for many, but not the right topic and mood for me to test interactive fiction(hereafter "IF"), and so im not sure i can judge it fairly.

Also i have trouble judging because i havent played many adventures. That would seem the alternative form of PC game as IF. So its hard for me to seperate out my general reaction to IF vs what is added by an RPG, by having levels and XP's. I suppose as these things go that was justified in the story about as well as it could be.

The dialogs were interesting, much to explore, many central to moving the plot along, well crafted, made you think in places. OTOH problems with the interface, and having the same conversation again when you went back to an NPC stretched versimiliturde. OTOH the curtness of a character on second encounter was frustrating from a gameplay viewpoint. A fundamental problem of IF?

Some interesting plot driven change to the world - curst/carceri. OTOH Sigil still stays essentially the same. Which may make sense plotwise, but sometimes also stretchs versimilitude - and where do those continually respawning thugs come from? Dont they ever figure out I can beat them?

A bit too much of Sigil, and too little of the Planes. For my taste, anyway.


Not convinced RPGs are the genre for me, though ive now gotten quite a lot of gameplay out of them, and have given them a fair chance i think (well at least the DnD ones - - Theres still BG2, i know, jam, i know )

	26-10-2004 07:35									#2
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Did you not know it was dark when you picked it up?

(Btw, that was my favorite part of the game... exploring what death actually is).

I'd like more of those interactive fiction games (or, better called adventure/RPGs). Torment was one of my favorite games ever.

	26-10-2004 07:42									#3
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Try Arcanum next.

	26-10-2004 09:27									#4
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well at least you've had some fun playing those games. I hope you had some fun. I would hope you aren't playing a game you aren't enjoying

PS:T is considered a harcore rpg. Many RPG's are more about combat. Neverwinter Nights is an example of this (but you can still roleplay if you desire). It may be worth checking out the fallout games (avoid Tactics- that's not a RPG, but a squad based tactical game). But they aren't for everyone. They tend to be of a more adult nature. And deal with a harsh future world. I would say to play BG2, but if you really didn't get into BG1, then 2 probably won't do much more for you. The big advantage of 2 over 1 is the characters that can join your party are more fleshed out and have more personality. Better NPC interaction in general. And I like the cut scenes with Irenicus.

	26-10-2004 10:00									#5
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I wouldn't say that Planescape: Torment is a hardcore RPG... but it's sure as heck not Interactive Fiction. Go to the site that must never be mentioned if you want to play some Interactive Fiction (it's all freeware by now). I can understand your dislike of the setting though, I hate post-apocolyptic settings.

Anyway, the fairest statement would be that Torment is like Baldur's Gate with good text and less combat.

	26-10-2004 18:00									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Did you not know it was dark when you picked it up?

I kinda got the hint from the title - I didnt expect it to be QUITE that dark.


Not that i was DISAPPOINTED mind you. It was a definitely interesting to play, and im glad i did. And well worth the money (i DID pick it up used for $5 or so) this was more in the lines of a review, NOT a whine.

	26-10-2004 18:02									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident well at least you've had some fun playing those games. I hope you had some fun. I would hope you aren't playing a game you aren't enjoying

oh yeah, i enjoyed them. Id say i enjoyed BG1 a tad more than PST, despite PST going in the direction (more story, less violence) I asked for. Im trying to explore exactly why that is.

	26-10-2004 20:18									#8
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quote: I kinda got the hint from the title - I didnt expect it to be QUITE that dark.

You should have asked Poly what to expect . Though I guess we may have been so excited we would have spoiled some of it .

	26-10-2004 21:19									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I kinda got the hint from the title - I didnt expect it to be QUITE that dark. You should have asked Poly what to expect . Though I guess we may have been so excited we would have spoiled some of it .

I did ask poly, and they told me it was a great game, and that it was more story oriented (which is what I was looking for) and you know what - they were right, and i bought and played a great game. I dont "regret" my choice. Though i wouldnt be interested in a PST2. Would I have been angry had i paid $50? I dont think so. I certainly got 50 hours or more of gameplay out of PST, and that meets the hour per dollar rule. And i think i learned a fair amount about what an RPG is capable of. OTOH IF i had been looking on spending $50, i might have researched more than just chatting on poly.

Again, my point in these reflections is not "i got gypped" or anything like that - its IF this is the ultimate in RPGs as stories, and Im not so floored with this game as to want to replay it, or find another just like it, whats going on - does it mean that im just not interested in story oriented RPG's, or that its something particular to this game. And I think it has largely to do with setting and mood (not to mention general ew yuck factor)

	27-10-2004 05:21									#10
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quote: does it mean that im just not interested in story oriented RPG's, or that its something particular to this game

Ah... well PS:T is a VERY 'book-like' game, in that there is a Hell of a lot of dialogue compared to other RPGs I've played. I actually prefer that style, myself. But it is rare... most RPGs have more action and less dialog.

quote: not to mention general ew yuck factor

You wuss . Well don't play Doom3 then .

	27-10-2004 06:03									#11
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Torment is the best RPG ever.

	27-10-2004 09:14									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar quote: but if you really didn't get into BG1, then 2 probably won't do much more for you. BG1 did nothing for me. BG2 was great.

I actually played BG2 before 1. And BG2 is a superior game without a doubt. The well better NPC reactions is the main reason for this imho.

But BG1 does have it's high points. I love all the outdoor travels. Some of the landscapes look pretty . I find that more interesting than poking around the large city in BG2 (but the city does have its high points)

	27-10-2004 09:16									#13
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*cough*fallout2*cough*

	28-10-2004 00:52									#14
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There's still BG2, the crown of RPGs...

Yeah, PST is GREAT, but not many people will play it twice. I mean...

spoiler(highlight to read): The aim of the game is basically to end your own life, and be damned to hell

...so its pretty dark. I admit to being left emotionally sandblasted by the whole Pillar of Skulls through to the end of the Fortress of Regrets.

* Jamski shudders*

I play the music and think of Deionarra.

* Jamski tingles*

-Jam

	28-10-2004 04:06									#15
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I love dark. I wish it was darker

	28-10-2004 22:32									#16
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I love the game and have played it through three times (with long intervals) to explore different morality choices as the Nameless One, see if I can spot more nuances, sidequests and the like.

Both Fallout 2 and BG2 are more 'heroic' fantasy. I'm very glad that I've bought and played all three.

	29-10-2004 02:20									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: does it mean that im just not interested in story oriented RPG's, or that its something particular to this game Ah... well PS:T is a VERY 'book-like' game, in that there is a Hell of a lot of dialogue compared to other RPGs I've played. I actually prefer that style, myself. But it is rare... most RPGs have more action and less dialog. quote: not to mention general ew yuck factor You wuss . Well don't play Doom3 then .

Well, arent we all manly playing gross out games? Look, i played the game for months, I can take it, man. But its not what id rather play. I dont find it that sort of thing entertaining, and I play games like this for entertainment. Again, if I seriously want to struggle with the meaning of death, Im more interested in what Franz Rosenzwieg has to say than what Chris Avellone has to say. And I think i played with an open mind, if Avellone did have anything deep to say i think id have noted it. There were a few moments there, but not enough to justify the atmosphere.

But thinks for the permission not to play Doom3.

	29-10-2004 02:22									#18
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again, at some level i was impressed with this game, im not dissing it, just pointing out why i wouldnt put it on my all time faves list.

	30-10-2004 16:31									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar BG1 did nothing for me. BG2 was great.

quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Oncle Boris Torment is the best RPG ever.

Enough said. Nothing beats PS:T. Fallout 2 and BG2 get near, but do not get near it. BTW, this is first I heard PS:T is too dark for them? Did you want Kill-Lady-of-Pain-be-a-normal-again-save-the-Planes-from-something-evil-and-all-is-well ending? Yes, you are immortal, your goal is to die, and you end up where you do, but it is a happy ending, if you watched the story line. It is the only right solution, lest Kill-bad-guy-and-everything-resets-to-normal ending is wished. PS:T is the way RPG games should go, interesting story, locations, atmosphere and characters - there are moments when it stirs emotions in you. Although I agree there should be more travel through planes - but then again I would wish a gigantic game.

	30-10-2004 19:41									#20
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It wasnt so much the ending as the atmosphere. Id like to see trees - like in BG - not just mourning for trees. Id like to see children - present in BG, not in PST. Id like weapons to not always be jagged, or things that look like butchers tools or primitive surgical instruments. Id like not to have intestinal removal play a role. You see where im going.

Again, PST is only the second RPG ive played. From what I gather the fight and kill the "grand floozle" is the genres cliche. While BG is the only game ive played that does that, i understand that there are enough of those, and im not suggesting there should be more.

What might be interesting is a game set in a real world contemporary setting, or a historical one, with a deep story, an emphasis on dialog and character, and a normal plot. Maybe that wouldnt really fit the RPG genre, i dont know. Maybe if youre going to make a good RPG and make it different from "kill the grand floozle" you need something as gothic as PST. Maybe what im looking for fits a different genre, or doesnt fit electronic gaming at all.

	30-10-2004 21:40									#21
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LotM - Have you played Divine series? I have to warn you, I haven't played those, only demos.

But the second installation looks interesting - basically you wake up and find yourself in a prison and that your soul has been binded to a death knight. You have to keep each other alive and figure how to undo the curse.

The story sounds interesting but who knows it could end up to be a

quote: fight and kill the "grand floozle"

	02-11-2004 21:48									#22
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Divine Divinity and Beyond Divinity are basically just fight and kill fests with a small amount of spark added by having movable environment objects so keys or levers can be hidden behind barrels or under boxes. Fun, but essentially a no brainer fight game like Diablo.

	02-11-2004 23:19									#23
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Oh well, I guess I (and LoTM perhaps) can stratch those off our lists