25-11-2000 20:48									#1
	Using Edited Maps Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

KenThur posed the following in the "Any Diplo games starting" topic. To avoid off topic discussion, I am putting out to it's own topic. It could make for an interesting discussion in its own right.

I doubt that U'll will change your mindset(or start times) for this game but i'll use the thread to throw out some alternative ideas.

I'm certain many of Civ MP players that are extremely wary of ANY manipulation of the rules or maps to achieve "fairness" or "equality". Thus, we will not get involved in any contest where ANYONE changes / messes with what is an EXCELLENT game system as designed. All this discussion smacks of communists "leadership" trying to figure out how the world should set up & run. (plus, it's so much waste of valuable & limited play time)

Why don't U just PLAY? Why must all this time & energy be spent on managing the start? Especially for a DIPLO game, where U have 4000 years, thru untold players & eras to affect the end results? It is supposed to be about cooperation & building civ's... or being hell-bent on destroying each other as soon as U find'm?

To try to pre-manage the outcome so that U end up with civ's that are all designed to be "equal" in opportunity, size, & everything else, is to not understand the fun of it nor how well Sid & his fellow geniuses designed in subtle play balances. (as cited; 1 of reasons raging barbs=good idea).
Nor are U recognizing the fact that "little" countries like Portugal, Netherlands, Japan, Sweden, Eygpt made BIG civ's during history. Or that "big", resource-rich countries like Australia or Brazil have never become major powers.

PLAY ON & stop talking about the "perfect" setup!!
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Regarding the map... once again, HAVE SOME FAITH & FUN!
Where's the adventure in playing on the same old, tired, too-well-known, earth? Be bold! Be true adventurers! Be LEADERS!
"Go forth where no man has ever gone before!"

Have U ever thot how interesting it mite be to have the news reports flow in as they REALLY did? In bits & pieces, as parts of this new world are explored & reported (or NOT, as your situation mite dictate)?

At some point, just as in our own history, maps can be published for others to see, understand, & follow the action. As for describing where U are & what happens during the 1st thousand years or so, get creative! Be like the explorers(!), send back dispatches, notes, perhaps even roughly sketched maps (perhaps even FALSE maps, aye?).
Get those fine minds of yours OUT OF THE BOX. Get creative! Get bold! Dare to take what & whom U find, & work something with them!

PLAY ON, chaps! Are thee men or manipulators!
==================================================

If there are those amoungst the readers of this that feel the same urge for adventure & challenge, wishing to play a game based on the US model instead or the USSR model... start a thread & let's see if we have the interest & talent(& timetables) out there!

Thanks for the forum & good luck how ever U do it.

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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"
[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited November 25, 2000).]

	25-11-2000 20:51									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

KenThur was responding to the following description of a map that I edited. My goal was to get a balanced start for a 6 tribe diplo game that would not use the Americas as a starting position.

I created the map by editing the Large World Map that came with my Civ 2 Gold CD. It is 75 x 120.

I now have a 6 Tribe Map which uses the following:

French - start in western Europe (38,32)
Russian - start in middle Asia (54,26)
Mongolians - start in NorthEast Asia (Northern China) (53,63)
Chinese - SouthEast Asia (Southern China) (63,60)
Babylonians - start in Northern India (53,63)
Egyptian - start in middle Africa (42,73)

I had to use Egyptian and Babylonians because the game uses tribe groups (colors).

I started each tribe on a river square. I added 2 rivers in the Mongolian (NE Asia area) to allow the river start.

I also added some forests to Africa, India and China, because I felt they were behind in productive squares. I created some "natural barriers" (mountains, hills or lakes) between each tribe. They are not large barriers, and I did this to balance the barriers already between other tribes ( like the Mediterian Sea, Red Sea and Himilayian Mountains).

I think that this map will give a balanced start. Since I have seen the map, I will be the last to choose my tribe. I will not know where special resources are, because those will be randomized at the start.

	25-11-2000 21:13									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Now for my reply to KenThur's comments.

I understand the worry about map manipulation. However I think it can be handled by being up front about the changes, and maker being the last to choose a tribe. I am also willing to give the map to all players before the game begins. The final factor that reduces the "knowing the map advantage" is the fact that resources and huts will be randomized.

As to why I think it is necessary to edit the map...

First we wanted to use a world map, so that when we began the "Tales from the Diplo Front" posts, we would have familiar geograpic reference points.

If you open the Large World Map that comes with Civ 2, using the Map Editor, you can review the terrain settings. When I did this I saw what I felt was a clear advantage for Northern Tribes. They have lots of productive land (forests, rivers, grassland). The Southern Tribes get a lot of unproductive land (desert, jungle, swamp). Given a choice, I would always pick a Northern Tribe.

I felt that it would make for a better game to improve the Southern lands. I did this by adding forests and rivers.

Finally, the orginal World Map places the some tribes very close together. This can be both an advantage (early tech trading) and a curse (lack of room to expand). I attempted to balance this problem by movng the starting city (setters begin there) positions.

Does this spoil the game? I don't think so, I think it improves it.

With a balanced start I think that the skills of the player are highlighted. Not the luck of getting good land from the beginning.

Well that is my opinion.... I bet there are many other opinions out there.

Epik

	26-11-2000 04:54									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

French - start in western Europe (38,32)
Russian - start in middle Asia (54,26)
Mongolians - start in NorthEast Asia (Northern China) (53,63)
Chinese - SouthEast Asia (Southern China) (63,60)
Babylonians - start in Northern India (53,63)
Egyptian - start in middle Africa (42,73)

You know this. Do the other players?
Part of any civilization's chance to thrive, here or real world, is their environment and how they cope with it.
Just because one doesn't have an ideal starting point doesn't mean they shoud toss in the towel.

Persevere.

	26-11-2000 05:07									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes the information was fully disclosed to the other players. The numbers in the "( )" are the map coordinates.

	29-11-2000 06:45									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Epik, your game parameters and manner of playing them are just as valid as Comrade KenThur's IMHO.
Plus really the game designers themselves should be the ones to speak regarding their intent and not Comrade KenThur nor I


"Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to?"~Clarence Darrow