29-10-2004 13:09									#1
	The War: 1250AD Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I believe that with the war starting, it would not be very convenient to keep the "in-turn" discussion to the Next turn thread... there is likely a lot of debate to go on, lot of pictures, and it would soon become confusing, if left to a single thread (meant for planning of the next turn anyway).

Therefore, as an experiment, I am starting this thread - dedicated to the first turn of war.

More info including the first map to be posted shortly.

	29-10-2004 13:14									#2
	Western Theater Support Apolyton

This is how the map of the Western Ocean looks after opening the save and going through the diplo and build phases:



Click to open a full scale version (a 0.55 MB JPEG).

Last edited by vondrack on 29-10-2004 at 13:26

	29-10-2004 13:25									#3
	Build Phase Inflate your Upload Space

Here is what I did during the diplo/build phases (discovered that it was possible to shortrush even during that time - good thing the F1 trick is completely legal! )

1) GS/Egypt offers peace as 'unaccepted'; cleared the table and exited

-) pollution N of Legopolis, bomber build failed
2) Farmerville finished worker, F1 into the city

[F1 trick phase]
3) Sandonorico changed production to infantry, shortrushed for 160g, and switched to submarine
4) Sharpehaven changed production to submarine
5) Tipperary changed production to destroyer
[/F1 trick phase]

6) Panama finished hydro plant, started bomber
7) Red Bricks finished barracks, started bomber
8) Forkmouth finished hydro plant, started bomber
9) Karina finished infantry, started bomber
10) Zargonia finished submarine, started bomber
11) Sandonorico finished submarine, started another one
12) Logville finished barracks, started bomber
13) Sharpehaven finished submarine, started bomber
14) Tarzania finished infantry, started bomber
15) Ahhmyfoot finished infantry, started bomber
16) Crossing finished factory, started submarine
17) Tiberium finished artillery, started bomber
18) Tipperary finished destroyer, started submarine
19) Nou Camp finished worker, started another one

Last edited by vondrack on 29-10-2004 at 13:35

	29-10-2004 14:24									#4
	Re: Western Theater Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by vondrack This is how the map of the Western Ocean looks after opening the save and going through the diplo and build phases

First a couple of observations:

1) the invasion is apparently NOT taking the Inchoff-Invoice route
though we would have (and I believe we should have) to check by moving Blade SW-SW to see whether they are not, for some strange reason, hiding E-E-E-E-E-SE of Inchoff

2) there is a distraction force NE of U-H3
three transports, escorted by 1 destroyer; it must be the group we spotted S-SE-SE-SE-SE of Sufa last turn. Most probably, they do not know we know about them. But it's obvious it's just a distraction meant to force us to split defenders, lacking them where the real blow is to come. I can see ways of severely damaging, or even destroying it at sea, making it's impact on our defense plans bearable.

3) ND BB Haudruff moved to NE of Crossing, together with NDT Schlepper (not seen on the map posted)
Darekill told me about this yesterday. What ND is going to do very much depends on what we do. Theoretically, their ships threaten Zargonia, Crossing, and Logville at the same time.

I know I am contradicting my earlier posts on preemptive strikes, but I suggest a meek peacenik approach in this case. We send ND a very polite note. We don't even expressly ask them to leave, just repeat our desire for peace between our nations - officially tell them how dire our situation is and that we are more or less at their mercy. We offer a moderate pull-back of our pickets (they are no good to us anymore anyway - Louisxiveau is all ND needs to sneak attack us). Yes, let's eat our hat, it's not going to kill us.

If they remain neutral - and I believe they will, since my message seemed to get through to Darekill eventually yesterday - we spare ourselves the nightmare of a 3-front war. If we sink the ships, we gain little, since ND will still be able to retaliate through Louisxiveau - even with no escort ships available. We do not and will not, in the reasonably near future, have forces enough to destroy that city. So, let's take the risk and hope ND is just showing off, playing their part in the scenario written by GS & GoW.

I am going to prepare the note ASAP and post it in our ND diplo thread for a review.

4) no mechanized infantry on the GS rooster
considering they are most likely not taking the Inchoff-Invoice route (that would be the only route allowing transport chaining), this effectively means we are not going to face MIs in 1270AD. Maybe later on, but not in 1270AD.

On a related note... GS only built 4 new marines, 1 transport, and 1 fighter since the last turn. GoW added 10 new marines, 1 transport, 1 destroyer, and 1 fighter. I suspect GoW may be using mobilization to build that much so fast... (remember the fake war we noticed few turns ago? and MZ's note in the public forum? it's a wild idea, but one we should consider)

5) we need to pull the distant submarines back
looking at the map, it's painfully obvious that U-H2, U-K1, and U-H1 are simply wasting time where they are ATM. What we need is a solid submarine picket belt at a certain distance from our coast. Having subs scattered all around is wasteful, as the information gathered is difficult to use (what good is to know there is a number of ships leaving Hurricane/Tornado, when we do not know the route they take?).

I am going to prepare a list of "obvious" moves we should take before developing our plans any further.

	29-10-2004 15:01									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Alright, here we go... considering the situation, I suggest we do a couple of "obvious" or "no-brainer" moves that may reveal important information to us.

1) move Blade SW-SW
or
2) move U-K1 SE-SE-SE-SE
if the tile SW-SW-SW-W-W-W-W (the current "finger" of the FoW) is clear, we will know for sure that the landing is not to happen around Invoice - and we will be able to move Task Force North to a more central position. I'd personally favour moving the submarine, because we need to pull her back anyway. But the ironclad would be just as good, since it can return to his position and refortify with no problem.

3) move the new submarine finished in S'haven ('U-S1') NW-NW-NW-NW
stop if (as soon as) the GS submarine spotted

4) move the new submarine finished in Sandonorico ('U-Sa1') W-SW-SW-SW
looking for the 1/4 GS submarine (moving this way covers most of where that sucker can be)

5) move the new destroyer finished in Tipperary W-W-W-NW-NW-NW, engaging the 2/4 GS destroyer
as mentioned in the turn plan amendments, there must be a 2/4 GS DD on that tile, since the only DD of theirs was exactly 5 tiles from H.B.S. Argonaut

6) move U-H2 eastwards (E-E-E-E, to be precise), watching for GS ships

7) move U-H1 (in the far South) NE-NE-NE-NE
pulling back, trying to establish a new picket perimeter; unlikely to spot anything, but we will need it closer to the coast anyway

Well, that's it - at least for the Western Theater. Any ideas? I am trying to keep it as simple as possible, so that we do not close doors we might need left open...

I am now going to have a look at the mobilization option.

	29-10-2004 15:26									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Here is the picture of the proposed moves:



Looking at the picture, it's apparent that taking U-H2 the shortest route eastwards is suboptimal... we'd learn only little new, since U-Q2 already is where U-H2 would end up... so either a bit more northern route or a bit more southern route should be better. Or maybe move 1-2 tiles eastwards and then, if there is nothing in sight, turn to the North or to the South...

	29-10-2004 16:57									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'd move U-H2 east and then North, because that's the area where we are mostly blind. Or, we could move U-H2 east and U-Q2 north.
Besides, our shores around Sharpeheaven and Forkmouth are almost as close to GS as Invoice.

	29-10-2004 17:09									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I'd move U-H2 east and then North, because that's the area where we are mostly blind. Or, we could move U-H2 east and U-Q2 north.

Moving U-H2 first to the East and then to the North would be preferrable then, since U-Q2 is going to engage either that 1/4 sub or 2/4 DD of GS - they are both to the East of where U-Q2 is ATM. The DD must be where H.B.S. Athena was last turn, the sub is somewhere inside the yellow area...

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Besides, our shores around Sharpeheaven and Forkmouth are almost as close to GS as Invoice.

True. Just that in 3t, GS can reach our shores via almost any route. Inchoff-Invoice was the only 2t route. They can be pretty much anywhere at this moment... though, considering the distraction force in the South, it's likely that the real armada will be farther away from there... which would be somewhere between Sharpehaven and Q.M.

	29-10-2004 17:38									#9
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quote: 2) there is a distraction force NE of U-H3 three transports, escorted by 1 destroyer; it must be the group we spotted S-SE-SE-SE-SE of Sufa last turn.

I don't know. This is strange. Would you send a distraction force escorted by only one destroyer?
This could be a real force as well, meant to appear harmless (who would guard 18 marines with one destroyer only?)

	29-10-2004 18:49									#10
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What I meant to say was: the most three transports can hold is 24 units. It is NOT the real invasion force. It's most probably a real force, not just empty transports, but it's not the core we are expecting. We have to assume it's 24 marines and stuff Abilene, Tipperary, and maybe even Q.M. with loads of infantry we could otherwise use elsewhere - and that's exactly what this force is for.

We can rebase our bombers to Tipperary, we can build 2 new DDs until next turn in Abilene and Tipperary. We will have a sub in the area (U-H3) and if we manage to sink the GS DD SW of Tipperary, we could have another DD there. That should hopefully be enough to damage this distraction force enough to ignore it for most part.

	29-10-2004 19:10									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Oh yes, I agree that it is not the main force. However, we don't want to let in 3 transport which could contain 16 marines, 3 settlers and some tanks or something similar, to attack one of our southern cities and then crawl through our teritorry to Karina.

Though I admit that we should deal with it using air and naval forces, if possible.

	29-10-2004 21:45									#12
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Guys, what do you think about the first few "easy" moves I suggested above? I'd like to play them within about 3-4 hours, so that we have a wee bit more info to work with.

	29-10-2004 22:17									#13
	Support Apolyton

I agree with them.

	29-10-2004 23:34									#15
	Eastern Theater Suffering from ads?

This is how the map of the Eastern Ocean looks after opening the save and going through the diplo and build phases:



Click to open a full scale version (a 0.53 MB JPEG).

	30-10-2004 00:06									#16
	Re: Eastern Theater Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by vondrack This is how the map of the Eastern Ocean looks after opening the save and going through the diplo and build phases:

OK, I think I've figured out the Eastern Theater. Have a look:



This will tell us whether we need any/extra defense in Jackson and/or Dye Fields. I do not see a way to get the same info for Port Hammer & Castlea, unless we sacrifice a transport from Port Hammer. I would prefer waiting for what we find out by these moves - if we have units enough, we just stuff Port Hammer and Castlea with a crapload of infantries and be done with it. Next turn, we ask Vox to check that area for us, and send a sub from Port Hammer that way.

	30-10-2004 00:25									#17
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What are we going to build in Legopolis? A Police Station or what? It'd be a shame to waste 80 shields.

	30-10-2004 00:36									#18
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We don't really need a police station, though.

Unless we want to go for Battlefield Medicine, I'm not sure what else there is to build. No Mass Transit available yet.

	30-10-2004 00:44									#19
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The moves are looking good, though I'd move the destroyer more to the north. Though I'm not sure how far north we can move it without having it destroyed.

	30-10-2004 00:55									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius The moves are looking good, though I'd move the destroyer more to the north. Though I'm not sure how far north we can move it without having it destroyed.

Keep in mind we had all our picket ironclads bombed down to 1hp and then "executed" last turn. There are at least 2 GoW carriers in the area. Whatever we leave out in the open, is likely to be sunk without us ever seeing the attacker.

The goal I had in mind was to find out if there was a direct threat to Jackson and/or Dye Fields, while keeping our ships as close to our coast as possible.

	30-10-2004 01:27									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I am sorry to inform you, but I will be off town for most of this weekend, so I will miss most of this first war turn. I trust in you to make the right decisions

Hold the flag high and Go Legoland!

	30-10-2004 01:29									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Alright, here we go... considering the situation, I suggest we do a couple of "obvious" or "no-brainer" moves that may reveal important information to us. 1) move Blade SW-SW or 2) move U-K1 SE-SE-SE-SE if the tile SW-SW-SW-W-W-W-W (the current "finger" of the FoW) is clear, we will know for sure that the landing is not to happen around Invoice - and we will be able to move Task Force North to a more central position. I'd personally favour moving the submarine, because we need to pull her back anyway. But the ironclad would be just as good, since it can return to his position and refortify with no problem. 3) move the new submarine finished in S'haven ('U-S1') NW-NW-NW-NW stop if (as soon as) the GS submarine spotted 4) move the new submarine finished in Sandonorico ('U-Sa1') W-SW-SW-SW looking for the 1/4 GS submarine (moving this way covers most of where that sucker can be) 5) move the new destroyer finished in Tipperary W-W-W-NW-NW-NW, engaging the 2/4 GS destroyer as mentioned in the turn plan amendments, there must be a 2/4 GS DD on that tile, since the only DD of theirs was exactly 5 tiles from H.B.S. Argonaut 6) move U-H2 eastwards (E-E-E-E, to be precise), watching for GS ships 7) move U-H1 (in the far South) NE-NE-NE-NE pulling back, trying to establish a new picket perimeter; unlikely to spot anything, but we will need it closer to the coast anyway Well, that's it - at least for the Western Theater. Any ideas? I am trying to keep it as simple as possible, so that we do not close doors we might need left open... I am now going to have a look at the mobilization option.

Seeing no objections to this plan, I made the moves as suggested. Kloreep was present in the chatroom. The results were as follows:

20) U-K1 moved SE-SE-SE-SE
spotted nothing -> Inchoff/Invoice route out of question

21) new submarine finished in Sharpehaven named 'U-S1' and moved NW
spotted a 4/4 GS sub W-W of Sharpehaven

22) new submarine finished in Sandonorico named 'U-Sa1' and moved W-SW-SW
spotted a 1/4 GS sub W-W-W-SW-SW of Sandonorico

23) new destroyer finished in Tipperary named 'H.B.S. Tisiphone' and moved W-W-W-SW-SW-SW, engaging a 2/4 GS destroyer - won with 1hp lost
there you have it, bastards!

24) U-H2 moved E-E
spotted 2 GS destroyers (2/4 and 4/4) at N-N (E-E-E-E-E-SE of Hurricane)

25) U-H1 moved NE-NE-NE-NE
spotted nothing

	30-10-2004 01:46									#23
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A picture is worth thousand words, they say... so, here we go - it's doctored a bit to show parts covered either before or after the first moves.

	30-10-2004 02:18									#24
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Seeing no objections to this plan, I made the moves as suggested. Kloreep was present in the chatroom. The results were as follows: 20) U-K1 moved SE-SE-SE-SE spotted nothing -> Inchoff/Invoice route out of question 21) new submarine finished in Sharpehaven named 'U-S1' and moved NW spotted a 4/4 GS sub W-W of Sharpehaven 22) new submarine finished in Sandonorico named 'U-Sa1' and moved W-SW-SW spotted a 1/4 GS sub W-W-W-SW-SW of Sandonorico 23) new destroyer finished in Tipperary named 'H.B.S. Tisiphone' and moved W-W-W-SW-SW-SW, engaging a 2/4 GS destroyer - won with 1hp lost there you have it, bastards! 24) U-H2 moved E-E spotted 2 GS destroyers (2/4 and 4/4) at N-N (E-E-E-E-E-SE of Hurricane) 25) U-H1 moved NE-NE-NE-NE spotted nothing

After a brief debate with Kloreep, we did two more moves - one (U-Q1) was posted in the turn plan and never objected, the other one was very obvious:

26) U-Q1 moved E-E-NE, engaging the 2/4 GS destroyer - won, 1hp lost


27) 58th Artillery moved to Sharpehaven and ordered to bombard the 4/4 GS submarine W-W; 1hp off the submarine

28) new ('62nd') artillery finished in Tiberium moved to Sharpehaven and ordered to bombard the 3/4 GS submarine W-W; 1hp off the submarine

29) 59th Artillery moved to Sharpehaven and ordered to bombard the 2/4 GS submarine W-W; 1hp off the submarine

30) H.B.S. Legopolis moved S-S-SE-E, enagaging the 1/4 GS submarine - won, no hp lost

Updated picture:

	30-10-2004 04:02									#25
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BIG NEWS!
GS Armada spotted!

quote: vondrack the fact is vondrack that it's likely GS launched their armada vondrack from a port vondrack not from a coastal tile somewhere vondrack 'cause they did not want to be spotted vondrack and we had IRs close vondrack Inchoff it was not vondrack Tornado it was not (U-H2 would see it at the beginning of this turn) vondrack Sufa does not allow for a seaborne attack at a city on the third turn vondrack hmmmm vondrack Hurricane does allow for that vondrack turn 1: 5xE vondrack turn 2: 5xE vondrack and then you can attack 5xE into Sandonorico Kloreep|idle Ah, Radar Towers... Kloreep|idle That'll be nice once we get radio vondrack if you take the city, you can immediately pour the tanks in vondrack that's bad Kloreep|idle Yep Kloreep|idle Sand can reach New Camp Kloreep|idle Nou can reach QM Kloreep|idle And Karina! Kloreep|idle Also, we sholud tihnk about a 1-infantry-per-city policy Kloreep|idle As insurance against Cavalry vondrack no need vondrack GS lacks Military Tradition Kloreep|idle Ah, okay vondrack theoretically vondrack 2x(5xE) from Blizzard Kloreep|idle Hmm vondrack allows attacking S'haven vondrack but that would bring them quite close to all those BBs vondrack if we simply stuff all of them into the bay Kloreep|idle Sand could only take Nou, QM, Karina, and Oasis Kloreep|idle And that would be it for the turn vondrack they'd have to pray to RNG Kloreep|idle Karina is quite enough, theough vondrack yeah vondrack hm, I guess I am betting on Hurricane as the launching point vondrack plus - Sandonorico is on flat land, just a town vondrack ah! vondrack just realized that Blizzard is nonsense vondrack after 2x(5xE), they would be SW-SW-W of S'haven Kloreep|idle Forkmouth is also vulnerable, right? vondrack but that's within the range of artillery positioned SW of S'haven! Kloreep|idle And it can take Farmerville vondrack GS would never risk that - especially with so many BBs there Kloreep|idle Good point vondrack ok, so we are now 95% sure they set sail from Hurricane vondrack vondrack means they would be vondrack 5xE from Hurricane now Kloreep|idle U-H2 N to check? vondrack that's NW of those two DDs vondrack sounds like the natural thing to do Kloreep|idle vondrack since we will even have 1mp point left to run away after taking the peek Kloreep|idle Yep vondrack ok, let me check one more time before moving it vondrack Inchoff - not Kloreep|idle k vondrack Blizzard - would be exposed to arty bombardment vondrack Hurricane - very dangerous to us vondrack Tornado - not, we would see them this turn vondrack Sufa - transit takes too long vondrack 5xE from Hurricane is vondrack N-N-NW of the current U-H2 location vondrack if we move N, take a peek, then move back S, we should be fine vondrack Jesus, I am feeling butterflies in my stomach vondrack ok, let's do it * Kloreep|idle is now known as Kloreep|dinner vondrack U-H2 moving N * Kloreep|dinner holds his breath vondrack YESSS!!!! Kloreep|dinner There it is!

	30-10-2004 04:32									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

So, there we have it. The main invasion force of GS has 13 transports escorted by at least 6+2 DDs. 13*8=104 units aboard.

In just 2 turns, they will be W-W-W-W of Sandonorico, able to attack the city - if taken, Sandonorico would provide GS with means to immediately pour the rest of their invasion forces ashore, attacking further inland. Nou Camp could fall, then Q.M., Karina, Abilene, Ahhmyfoot... With 70 tanks and a coupla combat settlers, they could theoretically wipe most of our South out.

They must NOT take Sandonorico. That's a given. We need to stuff the city with so many defenders that they will not be able to take it with marines.

	30-10-2004 04:39									#28
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Oh, btw... the move done was obviously:

31) U-H2 moved N

	30-10-2004 05:16									#29
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OK, a plan here. We will need every infantry we have around Sandonorico. Having to split our forces and defend several landing zones is a nightmare for us.

It's quite obvious what that 3-transport convoy in the South is supposed to do - tie our forces down there in Abilene and Tipperary.

So, let's try to get rid of them... or at least some of them.

Have a look at the picture above (the one with the main GS armada in a yellow circle). Green borders denote where a transport must start a turn to be able to take a city and "flash through" it further inland. Blue border is the movement range of the GS group. It's likely that the GS group heads right to where they will be able to threaten two cities at once - two tiles only. 7 if counting even those that do not allow a "flash through", but just seaborne attacks at both cities.

So, let's assume, that...

1) we build two 1t DDs in Tipperary and Abilene this turn (disbanding a horse and partially shortrushing)
2) we rebase both our bombers to Tipperary
3) we move U-H3 E-E-E-SE
4) we move LNT-BD, LNT-FE, LNT-NC, and H.B.S. Myrmidon closer to Tipperary

Next turn, we:

a) bomb the group, hopefully bringing the DD down to at least 2hp
b) we attack with U-H3, both new DDs (one 3/3, one 4/4), and H.B.S. Tisiphone (3/4)

Odds will be close to 80% for every attack. Unless we suffer from a real bad RNG roll, we should be able to take out at least 2 of those transports, making the remaining one much less of a threat.

If we do not sink everything, we make a "sea wall" around Tipperary and prop the defenses in Abilene as if expecting 8 marines (we can use 9 horses and cavs...). That should allow us to leave (almost) no infantry there.

Sounds good?

	30-10-2004 05:40									#30
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OK, let's take this real fast, as I am slowly losing ability to think. I've been up and crunching civ for too long today.

There is a couple of ships still having movement points in the Western Ocean. Suggestions:

Task Force North, incl. H.B.S. Legopolis to move to W-SW of Sharpehaven. This is a tile where 1/4 GS sub cannot spot them even if moving directly towards them. It's a tile allowing all the BBs to slip through to F'mouth, if needed. It allows them to strike at the tile W-W-W-W-W of Sandonorico - which is the most likely spot we will find the incoming GS Armada at when we open the next save.

U-H2 "Hawkeye" to finish its turn by moving SE, away from the Armada

U-Q1 "Avenger" to finish the turn by moving S, trying to stay out of 1/4 GS sub's sight.

U-Sa1 "Fastborn" to finish the turn by moving S, trying to stay out of 1/4 GS sub sight, tentatively heading to search for the 2/4 GS sub W of Abilene.