03-11-2004 01:42									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So why would the happiness of someone who rates a 2, be the same as someone else who rates a 10? This is not an empirical measure, as it is reliant upon individual opinion.

Overall it is a decent scale to go by. 10s equal 10, and so forth. The people that give 2's aren't as happy as the 10s, that's the point.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Okay. Given these conditions, what evidence do you have that believers disproportionately suffer from these blights of unhappiness?

That wasn't my point and I never said that. I said that a theocratic society (one ruled by one religious view and that enforced that view) is less happy than a freer one that allows people to believe what they want and practice what they want so long as it doesn't harm others.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why does happiness have anything to do with the brain?

-Drachasor

	03-11-2004 01:46									#122
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quote: Overall it is a decent scale to go by. 10s equal 10, and so forth. The people that give 2's aren't as happy as the 10s, that's the point.

Does everyone have the same level of pleasure?

quote: I said that a theocratic society (one ruled by one religious view and that enforced that view) is less happy than a freer one that allows people to believe what they want and practice what they want so long as it doesn't harm others.

How do you know this? Perhaps people would be more happy in such a society that supported rather than challenged their beliefs.

quote: Why does happiness have anything to do with the brain?

It is a valid question, regardless of what you think. I'm curious. Why do you believe better understanding of the brain will lead to insights of happiness?

	03-11-2004 01:53									#123
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quote: Life obviously begins at conception - or actually, the cell is alive even before fertilization. Whether being "alive" in such a manner has any meaning morally is the question. The cell is really not all that different from a bacterium.

Yet she is not a bacterium. She is human in the sense that she is of the same species as you or I, from the moment of conception onwards.

Now, DF challenged me for proof, that this is what medicine teaches.

http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/Notes/week1.htm

Note, on the pictures:

Fertilized Human Zygote

And then later,

4 Cell Human Embryo

	03-11-2004 01:53									#124
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quote: Am I allowed to beat up my infant child, in the privacy of my own home because I believe her to be my property?

am i allowed to force someone else to give up their flesh and blood, because i believe that somebody else should be given a chance to raise this couple's combined DNA?

quote: These children are not the property of their parents before their birth, any more so than they are after birth.

these children are not the government's property and outside of its jurisdiction, and thus the government cannot force them to give up what is theirs.

quote: So, why don't unloved children be given up to science so that we can one day cure cancer?

why not? especially if they're gay children, since they're not going to be breeding in the forseeable future anyway.

	03-11-2004 01:54									#125
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quote: Frozen embryos can survive without the consent of their mother.

ben, if you think being frozen is "survival", you've got a twisted view on what life is.

	03-11-2004 02:05									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi True. However, Removal of all religious influence upon government = oppression of believers.

Ah, No, it does not.

Wow, that was a simple one to win

	03-11-2004 02:07									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/Notes/week1.htm Note, on the pictures: Fertilized Human Zygote And then later, 4 Cell Human Embryo

Also note from the pictures:

Mature Human Egg

Menstration is murder!

Please, Ben. That was just the most pathetic attempt at proving a point ever.

	03-11-2004 02:18									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Does everyone have the same level of pleasure?

An admitted innaccuracy, and the best one can do is work on other questions and so forth that can help address this. In the end there will be error, but it is much better than having *nothing* to go on.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi How do you know this? Perhaps people would be more happy in such a society that supported rather than challenged their beliefs.

You are ignoring all the people that wouldn't agree with the accepted belief system. A pluralistic society allows everyone to practice their own beliefs, hence there is no belief oppression.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It is a valid question, regardless of what you think. I'm curious. Why do you believe better understanding of the brain will lead to insights of happiness?

It is, quite frankly, a rather ignorant question (and I suspect you are fully aware of this). Studies of the brain have clearly shown emotion centers and given other insights into how the brain works. Further research will yeild more and more results letting us understand the brain and how it can very from person to person very, very well. So to suggest that the brain might have nothing to do with happiness, or even any other emotion, is quite ridiculous.

-Drachasor

	03-11-2004 02:18									#129
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Yes, the point was that the unborn child is of the human species.

	03-11-2004 02:20									#130
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So what?

	03-11-2004 02:20									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yes, the point was that the unborn child is of the human species.

An egg is in no way an "unborn child".

	03-11-2004 02:21									#132
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...and what GePap said

	03-11-2004 02:24									#133
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quote: am i allowed to force someone else to give up their flesh and blood, because i believe that somebody else should be given a chance to raise this couple's combined DNA?

That's what we do for parents who don't want to take care of their child.

You are not forcing them to give up their child, they have already decided that they do not want this child.

quote: these children are not the government's property and outside of its jurisdiction, and thus the government cannot force them to give up what is theirs.

Right. So if these children are not their parent's property, and not the property of the state, than who do they belong to?

The state has an obligation to protect people. If these children are people, then they cannot be treated as property. If the biological parents refuse to take care of a child, then an adoptive parent, ought to be allowed to do so.

quote: why not? especially if they're gay children, since they're not going to be breeding in the forseeable future anyway.

They are people, Q^3, and as such, should not be experimented upon without their prior consent.

quote: ben, if you think being frozen is "survival", you've got a twisted view on what life is

Suspended animation is still living, just slower than normal. The real problem is the tissue death over time.

	03-11-2004 02:26									#134
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quote: An egg is in no way an "unborn child".

It isn't?

I thought you believed them to be precisely the same!

True, there are differences, but species classification is not one of them.

	03-11-2004 02:28									#135
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So you consider the differences between an egg (and presumably an embryo) to be one of species too?

	03-11-2004 02:29									#136
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quote: They are people, Q^3, and as such, should not be experimented upon without their prior consent.

BK: Gay rights activist

	03-11-2004 02:33									#137
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quote: An admitted innaccuracy, and the best one can do is work on other questions and so forth that can help address this. In the end there will be error, but it is much better than having *nothing* to go on.

True, but such errors, must also be considered. This problem may cause your own assessment, to gage some people with less pleasure than they ought to be shown with.

quote: You are ignoring all the people that wouldn't agree with the accepted belief system. A pluralistic society allows everyone to practice their own beliefs, hence there is no belief oppression.

I'm not talking about oppression. I'm talking about the positive support provided for the beliefs of the orthodox in such a society.

quote: It is, quite frankly, a rather ignorant question (and I suspect you are fully aware of this). Studies of the brain have clearly shown emotion centers and given other insights into how the brain works.

I suggest you refrain from labelling such a question as ignorant. If it is indeed an ignorant question, you now have a chance to illuminate an ignorant bumpkin with your prodigious philosophy.

Insights into emotion centres, doesn't really yield insights into happiness. Is it right to say that with only certain parts of the brain activated, such will produce happiness. If we continued to stimulate such parts of the brain, could we ensure perpetual happiness.

This is the point that I am trying to make. Happiness does not equate with brain chemistry. Changes in brain chemistry have unpredictable results.

quote: So to suggest that the brain might have nothing to do with happiness, or even any other emotion, is quite ridiculous.

I'm not even saying that. I'm asking you why you believe the brain to influence perceptions of happiness.

	03-11-2004 02:36									#138
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quote: So you consider the differences between an egg (and presumably an embryo) to be one of species too?

They are of an entirely different source than one of species. The differences are primarily those of nature. The unborn child is a distinct combination of sperm and egg, retaining the characteristics of both, including that of species.

	03-11-2004 02:37									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Removal of all religious influence upon government = oppression of believers.

	03-11-2004 02:38									#140
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Understood, so the embryo is defined by that genetic material and its source?

	03-11-2004 02:38									#141
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Odin: Don't tell me he actually said that? BK... what is your basis for that statement?

	03-11-2004 02:48									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The absence of religion is the same as the establishment of religion.

I strongly disagree -- absence of government-sanctioned religion allows for freedom of religious expression while establishment of a religion by a government sets the stage for a theocratic government.

	03-11-2004 03:07									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yet she is not a bacterium. She is human in the sense that she is of the same species as you or I, from the moment of conception onwards.

Ah, yes. However, functionally it's no different from a bacterium - or perhaps more precisely, an amoeba, since it has organelles and all.

	03-11-2004 03:08									#144
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quote: Originally posted by GePap An egg is in no way an "unborn child".

Yes it is

In the same sense that a seed is a tree

	03-11-2004 03:09									#145
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My problem with BK's logic is that personhood is now completely defined based on the sequence of nucleotides in a cell. Clearly, sentient non-humans are not "people".

	03-11-2004 03:13									#146
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Agreed, he needs to explain why a specific sequence of chromosomes means we should treat it differently.

	03-11-2004 03:15									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It isn't? I thought you believed them to be precisely the same! True, there are differences, but species classification is not one of them.

	03-11-2004 03:18									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Agreed, he needs to explain why a specific sequence of chromosomes means we should treat it differently.

No he doesn't. It's one of his fundamental assumptions.

We happen to base our judgements on sentience.

	03-11-2004 03:20									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi True, but such errors, must also be considered. This problem may cause your own assessment, to gage some people with less pleasure than they ought to be shown with.

And they can be considered and amended to as best as possible. It is still better to have data with some errors compared to no data at all.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I'm not talking about oppression. I'm talking about the positive support provided for the beliefs of the orthodox in such a society.

Oh, my mistake, I thought we were talking about everyone in the country. Apparently you only care about the people that follow the orthodox religion and everyone else can be miserable.

For me, everyone counts.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I suggest you refrain from labelling such a question as ignorant. If it is indeed an ignorant question, you now have a chance to illuminate an ignorant bumpkin with your prodigious philosophy. Insights into emotion centres, doesn't really yield insights into happiness. Is it right to say that with only certain parts of the brain activated, such will produce happiness. If we continued to stimulate such parts of the brain, could we ensure perpetual happiness. This is the point that I am trying to make. Happiness does not equate with brain chemistry. Changes in brain chemistry have unpredictable results.

The various states of happiness do indeed correspond with various brain-states. Understanding the brain more can lead to an understanding of how happy people are in a much more direct fashion. They can also lead to a better understanding of what factors really cause people to be happy. This would lead to objective measurements of happiness (that will get better and more nuanced over time), and how these objective measures relate to various questions one can ask on surveys (purhaps a battery of many questions will yeild a very, very high accuracy on these tests).


Right now our knowledge is relatively primitive, but it will improve. When it does, we'll have a much better understanding of how happiness and emotions work, and what environement (sociological and the like) influence the various states.

-Drachasor

	03-11-2004 03:33									#150
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quote: They are people, Q^3, and as such, should not be experimented upon without their prior consent.

and the sarchasm becomes evident.