02-11-2004 09:54									#1
	Rush Building with Great Leaders Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In my recent game I have had 4 great leaders. One scientific and three military leaders. The scientific leader only gave me the option of having a scientific age. Of my military leaders only one has allowed me to rush a wonder.

Is this how the leaders are supposed to work? In some games my scientific leader will let me rush a wonder, but not all. What are the requirements? I cannot find detailed information about this in the civilopedia.

	02-11-2004 10:30									#2
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Yes, sort of, in C3C you can only use an SGL (scientific leaders) to either rush a great wonder or increase the research rate temporarily. You can hold the SGL for as long as you want. This is the case if you get one and have no wonder to build currently. Wait until you do have one. (You can have as many as you want at any pone point in time.)

MGL (military leader) can only be used to create an army, rush a small wonder and certain structures.

Some restrictions exist to the creation of armies. Namely you can only have one for each 4 cities in your empire. They are few small wonders, so it is not so easy to have one available to rush.

In the main it is best to create armies, if you have room for another. They are times in some games where you have no need to create armies via a leader and may need to burn one on a structure.

This is common, when you have lots of armies and can build them from the MA.

The thing to be aware of is that you cannot create another MGL, if you have an MGL already. This means you will want to use one, if you have lots of elites and many battles going on at that time.

This is where I tend to burn them on structures. If you are allowed to make more armies, you can do that and not fill the army at that time, another good option.

	02-11-2004 11:24									#3
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Good information to know. Thank you.

	04-11-2004 09:01									#4
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I believe you can't rush a wonder with a SL if you've cut down Forest in the area.

	04-11-2004 11:12									#5
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You can't build a wonder in a city with "tainted" shields. That is any chops or disbands.

You could however rush the wonder in some city that did not have any tainted shields or wait for the current build to be completed.

	04-11-2004 16:58									#6
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Yep, that sounds right on the chopped, disbanded sheilds.

How about where you rush (through cash) a small improvement and then switch the build to a larger improvement.

I dont think that will work either.

	04-11-2004 17:32									#7
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Yep, that sounds right on the chopped, disbanded sheilds. How about where you rush (through cash) a small improvement and then switch the build to a larger improvement. I dont think that will work either.

No, it won't - the rushed shields are marked "tainted" as well. If you need to start a wonder in this city, make sure it finishes it's current build as fast as possible (for example switch to something that wwould be done in a turn). Then you can start building the wonder.

	04-11-2004 17:38									#8
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Thanks, I didn't think that would work as well.

Building wonders is so linear.

	06-11-2004 18:54									#9
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Are you guys sure about the "tainted shields"???

I can't remember ever having a problem with the SGL in rushing wonders were I chopped down forests. And I chop down forests a lot. When you have railroads going through its has the same effect as a forest, plus you get an extra food on grassland tiles that are mined.

	06-11-2004 18:59									#10
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Were you, by chance, already building the wonder when you chopped? Tainted shields in the production box prevent you from switching to a wonder, but when you're already building one the tainted shields just get thrown away.

	06-11-2004 19:07									#11
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No.

I was already building something else when I stole a tech from the AI, then switched production to the wonder from the tech I stole, and then finished the production with a SGL. Wonder was completed next turn.

	06-11-2004 19:16									#12
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And you're certain you had tainted shields? Do you have a save?

	06-11-2004 19:35									#13
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Yeah I'm sure. I was in Industrial Age. My culture rich, shield rich city was building a factory. I was currently researching Fascim. One of the AI's completed Electronics. Switched city to Hoover.

The game I'm currently playing has progressed too far. All wonders have been built.

Maybe be it's a bug. Because my paratroopers can't capture unoccupied cities. Everytime I try to drop one, I get a "Air Drop Failed" message and I lose the unit.

	06-11-2004 20:22									#14
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Is it possible you were trying to do the infinite forest exploit, where you chop and replant ad nauseum?

	06-11-2004 22:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Muad'Dib ... Maybe be it's a bug. Because my paratroopers can't capture unoccupied cities. Everytime I try to drop one, I get a "Air Drop Failed" message and I lose the unit.

No, that's what is supposed to happen. Unlike in Civ 2, paratrooper can't capture undefended cities. The same thing happens when trying to capture an undefended radar tower (as I found out the hard way ). It's unfortunate, IMO, that the designers did this because paratroops are pretty useless as they currently stand.

	06-11-2004 22:45									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Muad'Dib Are you guys sure about the "tainted shields"???

Yes, you will not be able to switch to a wonder if it has tainted shields.

If you do a chop of a forrest in a tile within the radius of that city and it is building a wonder, the shields will not be used for the wonder.

	07-11-2004 02:36									#17
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I know about the forest chop & disband unit don't add to shield product for wonders.
The question was can you switch from a non wonder production where you had a forest chop that added shields than switch product to a wonder and have your SGL work to finish production.
My answer was that I never experienced that problem and everything worked.
Going back to the paratroopers from a moment. In the prima guide it talks about the "Nuke city/airdrop tactic". And I do remember using them in the Game of the Year & Play The World versions. Is it something they changed with Conquests or the 1.22 patch.

	07-11-2004 02:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Muad'Dib I know about the forest chop & disband unit don't add to shield product for wonders. The question was can you switch from a non wonder production where you had a forest chop that added shields than switch product to a wonder and have your SGL work to finish production. My answer was that I never experienced that problem and everything worked.

No you cannot switch with any tainted shields. Since you can't switch, you won't be able to rush it.

	07-11-2004 11:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Muad'Dib Going back to the paratroopers from a moment. In the prima guide it talks about the "Nuke city/airdrop tactic". And I do remember using them in the Game of the Year & Play The World versions. Is it something they changed with Conquests or the 1.22 patch.

I just tested the game, and no you can't airdrop directly into a city. That applies even to a totally empty city. I tested this using Conquests with the 1.22 patch. It's possible this is a new 'feature' just for C3C. If that's the case, they might have done this in conjunction with giving bombers lethal land bombardment. Maybe they figured paradropping into a city would be too unbalanced given the fact that there are now more ways to empty a city of units. ???

	08-11-2004 17:36									#20
	Re: Rush Building with Great Leaders Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by MosesPresley In my recent game I have had 4 great leaders. One scientific and three military leaders. The scientific leader only gave me the option of having a scientific age. Of my military leaders only one has allowed me to rush a wonder.

As it has been said above, leaders allow you to rush wonders or structures, not units. If you had no rushbuild icon, it's probably because the city was building a unit.
The fact that you have 'tainted' shields or not is irrelevant to rushbuilding.
Tainted shields will only forbid you to switch to a wonder. If you are building, say, a factory, you will be able to rush it, 'tainted' shieds or not.

	08-11-2004 21:36									#21
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Dry:

My city was building a wonder, I think it was Universal Suffrage. I moved my leader there and the rush icon was not available. I went to several other towns and switched their production to the the wonder and in none of the towns was the icon available.

I don't have a problem with tainted shields as I don't cut down any of the forests until very late in the game.

	08-11-2004 21:43									#22
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Then the only other thing I have seen like that is that some lame town is already building the wonder.

If you look at the build options, is the wonder grey? If so, look on the F1 screen to see if anyone is building it. You see this often, when you have some little town finish its build and you have the gov doing things, it will start a wonder.

	09-11-2004 08:10									#23
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MosesPresley: Were you trying to use a military great leader (MGL) to rush the wonder? Because MGLs can't rush great wonders; only small wonders (including palaces) and improvements. Scientific great leaders, on the other hand, can rush great wonders.

	09-11-2004 09:49									#24
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Xorbon, yes it was a MGL.

How many SGL's can you get in a game?

Where can this information be found? I have looked in the read me and the civilopedia.

	09-11-2004 11:08									#25
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I gave all of that info on the first response. You can have as many SGL's as you can get (no limit), only one MGL at any one point in time, but no limit in a game. I have had 55 in one game. Dozens are the norm in a sid game.

	09-11-2004 11:58									#26
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I know you did, and thanks. You da man!

I don't think you said how many SGL's you could get, but it seems that theoretically you can get a bunch. The most I have seen is one. I have had a bunch of MGL's many times.

But I still don't see where that info is listed in the manual, cd manual or the read-me.

	09-11-2004 12:35									#27
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Yeah a lot of stuff is missing from the doc and not in the readme.

The most I have heard of (SGL) at once is three. I don't know if anyone has had more than 4 in a game, but it would be very rare.

It is not uncommon for me to not get any for the whole game.

	09-11-2004 15:14									#28
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some good stuff in here

thanks all

	09-11-2004 18:30									#29
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In theory, it would be possible to get as many SGLs as there are techs. IS that what youare asking?

	09-11-2004 20:53									#30
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 The most I have heard of (SGL) at once is three. I don't know if anyone has had more than 4 in a game, but it would be very rare.

I think I will always be puzzled about the randon generator in civ3.
I'm not an every day player, but in some 30+ games (Monarch), I've had something like 1 SGL every 5 games.
And then, suddenly, in my second last game: already 4 in the same one!!!?!?! And I'm still in the industrial age.
Maybe I should play it further.