04-11-2004 09:19									#31
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Wasn't there a time when the Democrats were unbeatable in the South? I mean it was like 40 years of solid wins right?

And that was Bush's strongest backers.

	04-11-2004 10:03									#32
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Right- you do know that McAuffile was "the center" - he was one of those Democratic Leadership Council clinton dems, and he has precided over an endless string of loses.

McAuffile has never been nor will he ever be a Clinton centrist. McAuffile was allowed by Clinton to remain in the leadership council to appease liberals but that doesn't make him a centrist. Most of the other liberals were chased off by Clinton in his drive to the center and McAuffile was put in to appease the tradional left wing once Clinton was gone.

McAuffile and his ilk are why democrats can't win today and by moving center they will once again begin to win.

	04-11-2004 10:10									#33
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I agree with Oerdin

Plus he is warrior psyops so knows what people react to and what appeals to them.

Axi's argument is technically sound for that strategy, but it won't work in America, people have become SO conservative here that the idea of massive social change (taking a viewpoint to counter your opponent) just won't work.

Only by going center can the Democrats reclaim anything. That means talking Republican language, without becoming them. Kerry tried this with the "we're going to kill Bin Laden," but he couldn't push it home.

The thing is that these Republicans are so far right they are on the verge of Reactionary. Warmongers, passing amendments that discriminate against a particular group of people (gays). Yeah, I'd call that borderline Reactionary.

I also think that the Democratic party needs to return to its roots and be the party for blacks. They have turned their backs on them the past 8 years. Clinton was a genius at mobilizing the black vote.

	04-11-2004 10:26									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker: Wasn't there a time when the Democrats were unbeatable in the South? I mean it was like 40 years of solid wins right? And that was Bush's strongest backers.

Democrats dominated politics in the South for nearly 100 years, from the late 1870s after Reconstruction ended until the mid-1970s when Nixon's "southern strategy" came to fruition.

When I was a kid (in South Carolina), the winner of the Democratic primary for any given office was the winner of the election. That's because there was only token Republican opposition (if any at all). So all the big political battles, like civil rights, were fought in the Democratic primaries.

After seeing how many southern states George Wallace won in the 1968 presidential election, Nixon decided to go after the Wallace crowd. So the Republican party began to actively court "states rights" (code for anti-civil-rights) voters.

By the mid-1970s, just about every racist in my town had become an enthusiastic Republican. That's when Republicans started to dominate Southern politics.

	04-11-2004 10:33									#35
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Very interesting!

Thanks for the info.

	04-11-2004 10:35									#36
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Why couldn't Bill Clinton take over as the DNC Chair? He's pretty much doing that kind of stuff for free already.

	04-11-2004 10:40									#37
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It's a step down for him. And Clinton tends to be egotistical. Giving others the credit for a national policy he creates seems to not be his style.

Maybe Carville should get the job .

	04-11-2004 10:42									#38
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I wouldn't mind having Carville as chair, that would just irritate the Republicans wouldn't it?

	04-11-2004 10:43									#39
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Yeah, where is Carville anyway??

We need to get his punk ass out of retirement.

	04-11-2004 10:44									#40
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He's probably making more money as a freelance campaign advisor and Crossfire host .

	04-11-2004 10:48									#41
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Joe Trippi

He's got superb organizational skills, and he knows how to communicate with the public.

	04-11-2004 11:17									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yet, presumably, a northern Republican can still win. And a decidedly non-centrist one can still win. What you suggest puts the Democrats in the rather unpalatable position that they must always nominate someone from a red state to win. The wiser action is do what the Republicans have done: reframe the issues to give them more viable electoral coalitions that don't rely so much on the given home state of the candidate, nor the nuances of his ideology (I defy you to find that much difference in policy between Clinton and Kerry). Virginia is ripe for Democrat picking, thanks to the influx of progressives into the DC suburbs. North Carolina, Nevada and Ohio are also places where the Democrats can start working on building a winning combination of electoral votes.

Boris, you've put alot of thought into this I can tell. The democrats need people like you. We've tried the northern stretegy in 1984, 1988, 200, and 2004 and it's failed each time. Why should we try the same thing and expect different results?

The big difference is that Republicans have taken the reactionary road towards modern social values. They court the guys who hate or are scared of gays, who think blacks aren't as smart as whites, or who think hispanics really shouldn't be allowed in th country. The low IQ crowd will vote for the reactionary candidate every time so that means the Democratic candidate is at a disadvantage. To make up for that you need to choose a candidate who is centrist and from a red state or else you won't win. Atleast you won't win by fighting the traditional Democratic fight against ignorance and stupidity.

As far as the culture wars are concerned the majority of the American population is moderate but leaning right so we need a moderate candidate or we will lose the votes of the majority of Americans. It's simple math really.

	04-11-2004 11:21									#43
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP

Ozzy, let's stop and look at things from a modern perspective. FDR was against nationalizing banks or other businesses, he was for allowing workers to be paid sub minimum wage if they worked on government projects, he believed investor's savings in banks should be protected, he supported things like the Tennessee Valley Water authority because they promoted flood control, rural electrification, and promoted commerce on river ways. What about this is so left wing from a modern perspective? FDR's first four years were his most liberal but the next 9 (1936-1945) were pretty centrist if looked at in total especially when you consider he's trying to fight the depression and WW2.

	04-11-2004 11:30									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Wasn't there a time when the Democrats were unbeatable in the South? I mean it was like 40 years of solid wins right? And that was Bush's strongest backers.

It was more like a 100 year period where no Republican could carry a southern state. Southerners thought of Republicans as "radical Republicans" who were of the party of Linclon. Republicans were hated for being pro-black and that wasn't very popular in the south. In the 1960's Republicans and Democrats flip flopped with Democrats voting for intigration of the races and Republicans being dedicated obstructionists to integration. The south loved bigoted Republicans who promised to continue segregation while the traditional Democratic candidates found they couldn't win the south and still support equal rights for blacks.

I can name a half dozen proment Republicans who stayed in elected office of 30+ years by declaring Blacks were genetically inferior to whites. Some of them only died and left office in the last 5 years.

	04-11-2004 11:32									#45
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Was George Wallace one of them?

Though he later changed his mind I thought.

	04-11-2004 11:36									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Thrumble Why couldn't Bill Clinton take over as the DNC Chair? He's pretty much doing that kind of stuff for free already.

I think Clinton would make a great DNC chair though he seems to have his sights on the Un Commissioner. That may be hindered by the fact Kerry didn't win though.

	04-11-2004 11:36									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Please, they won nationally 8 years ago! They just had a centrist instead of a leftist candidate. They can do it again if the smarten up and take the center.

Any major difference between Clinton and Kerry?

	04-11-2004 11:36									#48
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A tip for how Democrats can gain some of the moral values voters rather than simply writing them moronically off as "guys who hate or are scared of gays, who think blacks aren't as smart as whites, or who think hispanics really shouldn't be allowed in th country:" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books

	04-11-2004 11:37									#49
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quote: New DNC Chair?

	04-11-2004 11:39									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Any major difference between Clinton and Kerry?

Aside from Clinton being one of the craftiest politicians in US history who could exploit any weakness in his opponent AND was incredibly charismatic?

	04-11-2004 11:39									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Any major difference between Clinton and Kerry?

Clinton knows how to run a campaign?

	04-11-2004 11:40									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc A tip for how Democrats can gain some of the moral values voters rather than simply writing them moronically off as "guys who hate or are scared of gays, who think blacks aren't as smart as whites, or who think hispanics really shouldn't be allowed in th country:" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books

I actually agree with DinoDoc for once.

Though it should really just read:

"A tip for how Democrats can gain some voters"

Alot of us realize that the Neo Cons own the game and know how to frame the argument. This however was unknown to most people in general until the last few months. But recognizing the problem is the first step.

	04-11-2004 11:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Clinton knows how to run a campaign?

Ask William Weld if Kerry knows how to run a campaign .

	04-11-2004 11:44									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Was George Wallace one of them? Though he later changed his mind I thought.

Wallace was an independent southern segregation party nominee. He held a couple of deep south states but that was it. Once the southerners figured out they couldn't win nationally doing that the bigots and racists all joined the Republican party.

This continues to this day and it's way 80% of black refuse to vote Republican no matter who the candidate is.

	04-11-2004 11:46									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I also think that the Democratic party needs to return to its roots and be the party for blacks. They have turned their backs on them the past 8 years. Clinton was a genius at mobilizing the black vote.

This is very true.

I still don't think that going centrist would be any better for the Dems. They may get a few votes away from the Repubs, but consider this election, how much of the Repub base would a centrist have taken away? In even a best case scenario, not much. The Dems will probably win out amongst true independents anyway. The Republicans here like to talk about how great right-wing Democrats like Lieberman are, but they would never actually vote for them over a Republican candidate.

So a centrist position may yield a few rewards in some cases, but the penalities for alienating the base could be too high a price to pay when fewer voters show up to the polls and percentage points of voters defect to various third party candidates.

I agree with Boris that we need to take back the language that the Repubs have worked to defined over the past twenty years. There was a time when being an Atticus Finch style liberal was the cool thing. In fact, this has been the case for most of American history. We need to bring back fiery progressivism. I consider Obama-esque candidates to be the great hope of the Democratic party right now.

	04-11-2004 11:46									#56
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I thought the whole bigoted thing was just an exaggeration tactic the Democrats and the Hollywood crowd always used just to make the Republicans look bad.

I had no idea it was actually reality.

	04-11-2004 11:46									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Any major difference between Clinton and Kerry?

Yes, Clinton has always been a solid centrist while Kerry started the first 2/3 of his 25 years in politics as an extreme leftist who protested Vietnam and who voted against most defense bills. He latter moved center but it's hard to make up for 20 years of being hard left.

We need someone who's always been in the center.

	04-11-2004 11:47									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ask William Weld if Kerry knows how to run a campaign .

A better person to ask would be the President who had a negatively-slanted documentary made about him, purposely timed to affect the election, the whole weight of the entertainment media was against him, and the whole weight of the world's diplomatic community him along with a sluggish economy. tm John T

	04-11-2004 11:51									#59
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Ah yes, the President, who could count on the morons of the country to vote for him because they want to push the gays down and bring Jesus to the school house .

Btw, Clinton, who people on both sides consider to be one of the best politicians in recent history, has lost a campaign or two in his career (even one where he was the incumbant). I don't recall anyone saying he doesn't know how to run a campaign.

	04-11-2004 11:51									#60
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Well, it seems like Clinton was more efficient at hiding his true beliefs, because from what I heard Clinton is quite liberal.

BTW, do some people still believe that it was fine to go to Vietnam? If someone can't be elected because he opposed the war, even given the 30 years of hindsight, it just shows that America is hopeless.