04-11-2004 22:10									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I figured. Bush gets a pass, because *of course* the New England Liberal would be worse. -Arrian

I am glad you understand.

	04-11-2004 22:34									#92
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Most simply feel that Kerry would spend as much as W and would also increase taxes. Lesser of two evils on fiscal conservatism.

The lesser of two evils, before anything else, is to not run astronomical deficits.

	04-11-2004 22:36									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The lesser of two evils, before anything else, is to not run astronomical deficits.

I agree that the deficit is unacceptable. I disagree that Kerry would do any better.

	04-11-2004 22:38									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That strategy seems to be workng like gangbusters thus far.

The only state we need is Florida- beyond that, what is the point? Democrats should concentrate on places like Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado, which are growing.

	04-11-2004 22:38									#95
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If that had been the only issue in this election, I may have agreed, PLATO, that Kerry was not better than Bush (though I think he *may* have been). Part of the problem, of course, is that both the Senate and House are Republican - offering no check on Bush, but if Kerry had been elected, he would have faced an opposition Congress and had a tough time getting anything done (like, say, reversing Bush's idiotic budgetary policy).

-Arrian

	04-11-2004 22:45									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian If that had been the only issue in this election, I may have agreed, PLATO, that Kerry was not better than Bush (though I think he *may* have been). Part of the problem, of course, is that both the Senate and House are Republican - offering no check on Bush, but if Kerry had been elected, he would have faced an opposition Congress and had a tough time getting anything done (like, say, reversing Bush's idiotic budgetary policy). -Arrian

I will agree with this. A "loyal opposition" is a good thing sometimes.

	04-11-2004 22:46									#97
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I agree that the deficit is unacceptable. I disagree that Kerry would do any better.

I thought I was on your ignore?

	04-11-2004 23:48									#98
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quote: In today's South no one gets elected without being pro civil rights.

I could point to Trent Lott .

	05-11-2004 00:14									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I thought I was on your ignore?

I took ya off about a week before the election.

	05-11-2004 00:16									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: In today's South no one gets elected without being pro civil rights. I could point to Trent Lott .

In today's South almost no one gets elected without being pro civil rights.

	05-11-2004 00:20									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You are right that since the 1960's and 1970's the south is a different place. The moved Republican because of racism but they've stayed Republican because they like the conservative enconomic and social messages the Republicans send. In short, racism convinced the south to give Republicans a chance but now that they've tried it they've decided they like Republicans for entirely different reasons. It's clear that the south of 2004 is very different from the soutn of 1968 or 1972 when outright racists could win majorities in the deep south. I don't see any way a Wallace could get the majority in any southern state today but the fsct remains that when the south seitched this was the major issue. Ski is right that other issues were involved but in the 1960 & 1970's civil rights was the dividing line in the country and especially in the south.

Agreed

	05-11-2004 00:21									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander The breaking of the solid Democrat south began in the Eisenhower administration. You know, the guy who called up the National Guard to enforce Brown vs. the Board of Education. Up to that point it was under Democrats that Jim Crow was created and practiced in the south. Opposition to civil rights legislation was sadly not limited to either major party. Some Democrats unhappy with their party leadership's support for desegregation split from the party several times, most famously with the Dixiecrats starting in the late forties and continued up until George Wallace's independent run for president was cut short by an assassination attempt in 1972. Fed up with the Dems for many reasons and no longer held in thrall by Dem tolerance for segregation many former southern Dems defected to the Republican party over time. Their presence revitalized the Republican party in many southern states for the first time since reconstruction, and others who weren't primarily segregationists were attracted to the Republicans for a host of reasons. It should be noted however that the Republicans never had a policy for reinstating or tolerating segregation in the south. The newcomers were too few and too new to create this sort of momentum, and as their numbers swelled opposition to desegregation in the south fell even faster. Rather they were attracted by a better idealogical / cultural fit with the Republican party which the disintegration of one party rule in the south made viable.

Interesting how the Republican Party of the nineteenth century before the failure of Reconstruction was the libral party, and at the same time, having many constituents in favor of extending equal rights while the Democratic Party was the conservative party, and was much more centrally opposed to equal rights.

Historically, conservatives have been opposed to equal rights and today that is still the case, with the conservative Republican Party opposed to abolishing second-class citizenship for gays and lesbians.

	05-11-2004 01:30									#103
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun with the conservative Republican Party opposed to abolishing second-class citizenship for gays and lesbians.

You mean you WANTED to be a second-class citizen? I would think everyone would want to be treated fair and balanced.

	05-11-2004 02:15									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I could point to Trent Lott .

What, as a poster child for victimization of the double standard applied to Repubs verses Dems?

	05-11-2004 02:27									#105
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb You mean you WANTED to be a second-class citizen? I would think everyone would want to be treated fair and balanced.

No -- we already are second-class citizens and the Republican Party does not want to abolish this second-class citizenship.

	05-11-2004 02:54									#106
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quote: My fiance and I actually had a half-serious discussion last night about leaving the country.

You're all talk, dude.

	05-11-2004 02:57									#107
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Of course. I grew up here. I have family here. I love where I live.

A few years ago such a conversation would not have happened.

But you know what? I've got family in Canada and the UK (and Australia, for that matter). I'm beginning to question why I would stay in this country.

That in and of itself is quite a change, Dan. Ridicule it if you wish. I don't give a ****.

-Arrian

	05-11-2004 03:00									#108
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I'm not ridiculing your questioning, I'm ridiculing your lack of action. You're all talk.

	05-11-2004 03:10									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Of course. I grew up here. I have family here. I love where I live. A few years ago such a conversation would not have happened.

Perhaps not, but thats just a sign of the insane and uncivil discourse on left and right in the last few years. Not the social reality of the country.

What was the big social pull of the Bush campaign? No Gay marriage? In fact gays rights to civil unions are more extensive today then they were in 1992, or in 1984, or in 1969 (when Stonewall happened - you know the police went on a riot in a gay bar - in NEW YORK CITY) Choice - thats been a matter of constant debate from Roe v Wade on. Death Penalty - do i need to remind you that Bill Clinton executed people as gov of Arkansas -were you planning on leaving the US then?

Maybe its something else?
What is it deficits? we had those in the 60's and 70's and 80s and in fact right through the late 90's. wars on questionable justifications? Grenada, Panama, ....


I just dont get what the existential despair is about - other than embarrasment at the monkey faced dyslexic one. And the mockery of those who toss out fascist and imperialist lightly, for decisions that may be wrong, but are indeed difficult decisions.

	05-11-2004 03:13									#110
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Virgina Postrel:


'Cheer Up, Andrew

Exit poll data are here, and you can drill down for specifics by state or regions.
As I mentioned earlier in the post about Lupe Valdez's election, the results aren't as bleak for supporters of gay rights as you'd think from listening to triumphant social conservatives or despairing gays.

Nationally, gay marriage is a loser, but civil unions are a big winner, with 35 percent support (and 32 percent in the South). Assume that the 25 percent who back marriage rights (17 percent in the South), and you've got a clear majority (and a slim lead even in the South, where Bush won 32 percent of gay voters). The public is squeamish about "gay marriage," but not about giving gay couples public recognition and legal rights.'

	05-11-2004 03:18									#111
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark What was the big social pull of the Bush campaign? No Gay marriage? In fact gays rights to civil unions are more extensive today then they were in 1992, or in 1984, or in 1969 (when Stonewall happened - you know the police went on a riot in a gay bar - in NEW YORK CITY) Choice - thats been a matter of constant debate from Roe v Wade on. Death Penalty - do i need to remind you that Bill Clinton executed people as gov of Arkansas -were you planning on leaving the US then?

Why would Arrian have known about Bil Clinton as governor of a southern state? As for gay rights- yes, gays have more rights today than in 1992- and that is what Arrian supports- and those in power today wan to go back, not forward, like those who came into power in 1992.

quote: Maybe its something else? What is it deficits? we had those in the 60's and 70's and 80s and in fact right through the late 90's.

They were smaller, and until the early 1980's the US was still a lender, not debtor nation. It took a lot to get rid of those deficits in the late 90's

quote: wars on questionable justifications? Grenada, Panama, ....

Conflicts that took less than 2 months each, or that cost under 30 American lives combined hardly compare to Iraq. Those two interventions were part of a long American tradition of screwing around in L.A., like in nicaragua, Haiti, the Dominican Republic and so forth. Iraq is brand new.

quote: I just dont get what the existential despair is about - other than embarrasment at the monkey faced dyslexic one. And the mockery of those who toss out fascist and imperialist lightly, for decisions that may be wrong, but are indeed difficult decisions.

I personally agree with Thomas Friedman in the NYT today- in power are people who want a different US than I do- not just policies, but the very values that motivate us. They want a place alien to what I know.

	05-11-2004 03:21									#112
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So somebody name a few good centrist Democrats who might make a good DNC chair.

	05-11-2004 03:23									#113
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why would Arrian have known about Bil Clinton as governor of a southern state?

er, cause he made a point of running back to arkansas during the presidential campaign to sign the warrant, IIRC. It wasnt hidden or obscure, it was PUBLICIZED to show what kind of a guy he was.

	05-11-2004 03:26									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I'm not ridiculing your questioning, I'm ridiculing your lack of action. You're all talk.

For now, yes. Things have gotten bad enough for me to question. They haven't reached the point where I'll answer the question with a yes.

I grew up in a very Republican household, Dan. My parents LOVED Reagan (and so, then, did I). I have been very proud to be an American, I've loved my country... and that's crumbling. It's not something that happens overnight.

...

LotM,

quote: What was the big social pull of the Bush campaign? No Gay marriage?

You're not actually going to question that it was a key component in the election, are you? Bigotry, intolerance - those things may not be new (of course they're not), but the party in power has exploited them wonderfully (:vomit to stay in power. That disgusts me.

This election is illustrative of a trend. A trend away from the ideals of the Enlightenment and towards backward social conservatism. That's a trend that both repulses me and scares the **** out of me. If it continues, there are other places to live.

-Arrian

	05-11-2004 03:28									#115
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quote: in power are people who want a different US than I do- not just policies, but the very values that motivate us. They want a place alien to what I know.

BINGO!

LotM,

The Death Penalty is not an issue I really care about.

-Arrian

	05-11-2004 03:28									#116
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why would Arrian have known about Bil Clinton as governor of a southern state? As for gay rights- yes, gays have more rights today than in 1992- and that is what Arrian supports- and those in power today wan to go back, not forward, like those who came into power in 1992. quote: Maybe its something else? What is it deficits? we had those in the 60's and 70's and 80s and in fact right through the late 90's. They were smaller, and until the early 1980's the US was still a lender, not debtor nation. It took a lot to get rid of those deficits in the late 90's quote: wars on questionable justifications? Grenada, Panama, .... Conflicts that took less than 2 months each, or that cost under 30 American lives combined hardly compare to Iraq. Those two interventions were part of a long American tradition of screwing around in L.A., like in nicaragua, Haiti, the Dominican Republic and so forth. Iraq is brand new. I personally agree with Thomas Friedman in the NYT today- in power are people who want a different US than I do- not just policies, but the very values that motivate us. They want a place alien to what I know.

Ronald Reagan wanted a place alien to what I knew. Of course progressive also want a place thats "alien" thats what makes them progressive.

And what they want is still rather more progressive than what America was actually like for most of my life. So they want to go back a little - thats the nature of change, two steps forward, one step back.

I wouldnt leave a country cause of what people want - id leave it cause of the reality of the society - if arrian and wife find a place they want to go to, best of luck to them - but to paint a dystopian picture of the US today is just silly.

	05-11-2004 03:28									#117
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark er, cause he made a point of running back to arkansas during the presidential campaign to sign the warrant, IIRC. It wasnt hidden or obscure, it was PUBLICIZED to show what kind of a guy he was.

Has anyone mentioned the DP here yet besides you? Of all the reasons to dislike the people coming to power, their support for the DP is minor.

	05-11-2004 03:33									#118
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quote: And what they want is still rather more progressive than what America was actually like for most of my life. So they want to go back a little - thats the nature of change, two steps forward, one step back.

That's the optimistic view, and it *is* borne out by History. However, I'm thinking I might not want to be a part of the one step back.

In 1947, my father left Britain (or, to be 100% accurate he left the deck of a British merchant ship in Newfoundland) because he didn't like the way things were going there politically. They went Socialist, and he went to Canada and then eventually the U.S. I might just follow that lead... although it might take me to the places he left.

-Arrian

	05-11-2004 03:33									#119
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quote: For now, yes. Things have gotten bad enough for me to question. They haven't reached the point where I'll answer the question with a yes. I grew up in a very Republican household, Dan. My parents LOVED Reagan (and so, then, did I). I have been very proud to be an American, I've loved my country... and that's crumbling. It's not something that happens overnight.

Spare me and everybody else the melodrama. You act like a frickin' baby who hasn't gotten his way and thinks everybody should feel sorry for him because of it. There are an almost infinite number of places outside the US where you can live and if you have lost faith in the American enterprise, then just leave. No explanations needed. You're only making yourself and others miserable in the process.

	05-11-2004 03:35									#120
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Because I still love my part of America, Dan. CT, and New England in general. And I love my family & friends.

Those things are still #1.

Gotta run.

-Arrian

p.s. If the country shifted dramatically away from your values, I'd bet you might sound like a "baby" too, right after the election. So spare me the indignation.