05-11-2004 04:14									#1
	AU Mod: Subs and Nuclear Subs Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

From a thread in the Strat forum:

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator FYI: There is a workaround for the sub bug. Go into the editor and give subs the Hidden Nationality flag, the same flag that Privateers have. Your sub can still get accidently attacked but it won't trigger a war or any MPPs.

Should we do this in the AU Mod?

	05-11-2004 05:02									#2
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I suspect that giving subs the power to kill and be killed with impunity in peacetime would have more nasty side effects than it's worth. What thread did this come up in? I'd be interested to see what thoughts, if any, people came up with in connection with the issue there.

	05-11-2004 05:03									#3
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I think it's a good workaround.

It'll probably make subs even nastier against transport ships, but it isn't a big deal. Naval warfare is not an important aspect of the game, and AI's ability of ocean-crossing troop transportation is already poor enough to be ignored.

	06-11-2004 03:07									#4
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...625#post3411625

It's not really discussed at length.

	06-11-2004 04:11									#5
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Thanks, Theseus. I posted the following in that thread, but I'll go ahead and post it here too.

quote: My biggest concern about using that workaround is what it would do to AI sub utilization (to whatever extent that AIs use subs to begin with). On one hand, I don't want my transports to be attacked by subs during peacetime That's especially true in light of the fact that subs have the stealth attack attribute, and could therefore attack even escorted transports. On the other hand, I can envision a lot of AI-AI fratricide since AIs seem inclined to kill hidden nationality units when they get the chance. I suppose one could take the view that those two situations balance each other somewhat. But my own view is more along the lines of, "Two wrongs don't make a right." Question: have you noticed anything about the extent to which either or both of my concerns is legitimate? By the way, I've never taken any particular interest in using subs to begin with, so I don't have to worry about having AIs accidentally attack my (nonexistent) subs.

	06-11-2004 04:31									#6
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I think it might be interesting to playtest. It might require some forebearance on the part of the player though... Imagine the havoc one could wreak on the AI civs with, say, 15 Subs!!

	06-11-2004 06:58									#7
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IF this goes through, I really think removing stealth would be a good idea.

	06-11-2004 15:38									#8
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I don't think AI will get hurt. It is human player who use mass transports that fears hidden-nationality stealth-attack submarines.

Subs vs destroyers is just as privateers vs frigates.

	06-11-2004 15:45									#9
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The problem is that there is no defence against the subs, if they have both hidden nationality and stealth attack. Imagine losing 2MAs and an 3xMA army (400+120x5=1000shields, excluding the cost of the transport)


Would anybody mind taking away stealth attack and adding hidden nationality? Would not break the game, but the subs have to crack the defence of the surface ships. Maybe an increae in attack strength (c. 2 points?...)

	06-11-2004 16:12									#10
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But when dose any AI use that?
Plus, AIs are known for "cheating". They *know* where subs lurk. And they prefer fast destroyers over battleships. I doubt player's subs can survive in active hunting, once there's no risk of provoking war.

	06-11-2004 17:10									#11
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Nathan, I suspect that AI subs wouldn't attack MPP partners ships from what I've seen with locked alliances and privateers. That's not perfect but would help with more extreme cases of AI fratricide.

Krill, subs are relatively slow. It doesn't take many destroyers to scout all the tiles around your transport from which they could attack and so be safe . Of course, that would probably mean leaving destroyers in more vulnerable positions than your battleship escort SOD. Worse, seafaring, Magellan's Voyage and nuclear subs would make it much harder. But that just makes it more interesting, right?

I might even be in favour of this change. It's not quite as extreme as it looks.

	06-11-2004 22:10									#12
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While the AU Mod is not supposed to change the game too much, it is supposed to help the AI and widen strategic possibilities. With the nearly non-existent AI skills concerning sea invasions, any help for them to counter such acts would be much appreciated. Even the seemingly big change of giving subs hidden nationality. And the simple addition of possible preemptive strikes (whether by the AI or by the human player) would really add a positive value to the strategic choices, IMO. Perhaps it is worth considering, even if it means changing the game a little?

	06-11-2004 22:15									#13
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If a MP AU mod ever comes along, I think it should definitely have this. Humans are on equal footing.

	18-11-2004 01:24									#14
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If we're going to consider this proposal for possible inclusion in our next AU game, it needs to be placed officially under consideration. I would suggest that if it is, we include removal of the "stealth attack" attribute for balance reasons.

	18-11-2004 02:53									#15
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I am closing in on presenting a version of my AU Ancient Civs mod for people to review. So far I ahve only debugged it to watch the AI civs perform, and have not actually played the civs myself.... that is the next step I plan, while people check out the 0.98 version I'll be posting.

If useful, I could playtest hidden nationality for Subs and Nuke Subs... it is interesting to note how *dramatically* important sea power is on this kind of map.

	18-11-2004 02:58									#16
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I just went into the editor to set both to hidden nationality turn off stelath attack for the Nuke Subs, and realized that one can specify which types of ships are vulnerable to stealth attack (I presume that any that are *not* are subject to stack defense order).

How about I leave stealth attack available for Subs and Nuke Subs?

	18-11-2004 03:56									#17
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The only way I would consider leaving stealth attack on in conjunction with hidden nationality would be if the only allowed targets for it are ships incapable of transporting units. The power of human players' being able to pick off transport-type ships or aircraft carriers during peacetime without having to fight through their escorts would be unacceptably unbalancing in my view. The value of such a limited stealth attack capability would be relatively small, especially with how hard it is to tell which unit is which in a stack that has multiple units of the same type. (That gets in the way of trying to specifically target a damaged unit instead of a healthy one.) But there might be situations where it would have at least some value.

Nathan

	18-11-2004 05:10									#18
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Re Stealth-Attacking subs:
If ANY unit in a defending stack is not subject to Stealth Attack, then the sub conducts a NORMAL attack against the strongest unit in the stack. I use stealth-attacking subs in my mod, I didn't set it for one unit; and that's how I found out.

	18-11-2004 06:54									#19
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Hmph... well, I've started playing my first game using the AU AC Mod, and will find out if stealth attack has *any* value the way I've configured it (i.e., Run Silent, Run Deep... sub cat-and-mouse, I guess).

	18-11-2004 08:34									#20
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I can't even remember the last time I built a sub, nuclear or otherwise

	18-11-2004 09:36									#21
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I build Subs as cheap attackers and Sub-spotters at coastal flash points... I've used them quite often, actually. Nuke Subs have not been that much more worthy in that regard (although I never paid much attention to the stealth attack ability, and prolly should have).