05-11-2004 10:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris So Firefly, you think that someone can conceivably be worse than Bush in foreign policy?

Bush has been pretty good in foreign policy. Except for the whole Iraq thing . But other than that, he's been good.

	05-11-2004 10:59									#32
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Forget Centrism, centrism will just let the Republicans continue to define the boundaries of political discussion. What we need a candidate with a fiery progressive spirit that can relate to the common man. We need a Robert LaFollette style candidate.

Let's face it, if voters want moral values, moral values are on our side. Let's bring back progressives that talk about the good old golden rule, and new testament style values. Let's point out who the bad guys are.

If they want to talk about gay marriage, let's tell them that we don't need no steenking federal goverment in the marriage business.


So in short, we need to redefine the rhetoric to work our way, which shouldn't be as tough as it seems, and we need some fiery, fighting progressives who won't be complacent puppy dogs like the majority of the Democratic party.

	05-11-2004 11:00									#33
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anyone read this?

it shows that McCain thing was more serious than was originally reported. What if McCain was on the ticket? could Kerry have won?

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041104/nyth186_1.html

quote: McCain batted away the idea as not serious, but Kerry, after he wrapped up the nomination in March, went back after McCain a half-dozen more times. "To show just how sincere he was, he made an outlandish offer," Newsweek's Thomas reports. "If McCain said yes he would expand the role of vice president to include secretary of Defense and the overall control of foreign policy. McCain exclaimed, 'You're out of your mind. I don't even know if it's constitutional, and it certainly wouldn't sell.'" Kerry was thwarted and furious. "Why the f--- didn't he take it? After what the Bush people did to him...'"

	05-11-2004 11:05									#34
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I agree about Hillary, she is a no-go for the Dems.

She's the kiss of death in the red states and in a few of the blue ones. I suspect Jeb Bush will be running in 2008 and he'll have the benifit of all of his brother's and his father's political flunkies plus he'll be backed by wads of cash the PACs will throw at him. He's going to be going after the blue states so we'd better be going after the red ones or we lose... again.

	05-11-2004 11:08									#35
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Diss: In my opinion McCain is the most honest man in the Senate today. He calls it how it is and he doesn't cow tow to the special interests.

His push for campaign finance reform was one of the best pieces of legislation in the last 25 years and he did it dispite Bush & the Republicans trying to tar and feather him.

	05-11-2004 11:14									#36
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Okay, I still don't believe y'all about Hillary but I'm willing to concede that if every single opinion other than mine on here says she's a bad choice, then maybe she isn't the best choice.

Are there any other prominent women Democrats? I would like to see a woman elected to President. She'd show the world we aren't all crazy reactionary nuts, be able to make meaningful decisions about abortion, and it's just odd that the largest majority in our nation (women) aren't represented at all in the highest office.

Or an African American. I just want to break the "rich white guy" trend, really...they've only been getting richer and whiter as time goes on...

	05-11-2004 11:16									#37
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Rufus Right on with everything.

Yes, screw the south just like the republicans have given up on the Northeast and the West coast. The West is the fastets growing part of the country- changing fast, specially places like Nevada and the Mountain states- if Kerry had won Ohio by itself, that would have been enough, but also places like NM, Arizona, Colorado? There is a chance there, to make the southwest dem. The only southern state worth even trying for is Florida. Screw the rest.

	05-11-2004 11:18									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Vilsack would at least give us a red state. A Floridian would, Georgian, or similiar large southern state (other then Texas) would be more desirable.

But can you name a Floridian, Georgian, Texan, etc who could plausibly capture the Dem nomination in 4 years?

That's the problem. I'm not saying give up on the South forever, but it shouldn't be a near-term goal.

	05-11-2004 11:19									#39
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Let's face it, if voters want moral values, moral values are on our side. Let's bring back progressives that talk about the good old golden rule, and new testament style values. Let's point out who the bad guys are. If they want to talk about gay marriage, let's tell them that we don't need no steenking federal goverment in the marriage business.

Specifically, what arguments are you saying we should use? Carter used several old testiment values arguments in the 1976 Presidential debate and they seemed to go over well.

	05-11-2004 11:22									#40
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Okay, I still don't believe y'all about Hillary but I'm willing to concede that if every single opinion other than mine on here says she's a bad choice, then maybe she isn't the best choice. Are there any other prominent women Democrats? I would like to see a woman elected to President. She'd show the world we aren't all crazy reactionary nuts, be able to make meaningful decisions about abortion, and it's just odd that the largest majority in our nation (women) aren't represented at all in the highest office. Or an African American. I just want to break the "rich white guy" trend, really...they've only been getting richer and whiter as time goes on...

Democrats already got 88% of the black vote and 65% of the women vote so we have little to gain there. We are seriously behind in the white male vote though. If a woman or a black gets on a ticket it will be a Republican ticket because they're doing poorly in both of those areas.

	05-11-2004 11:24									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris So Firefly, you think that someone can conceivably be worse than Bush in foreign policy?

No, I don't. But I think someone can look less credible on foreign policy, and I think the ex-governor of a teeny-weeny state best known for Cherry Garcia Ice Cream and re-electing Congress's only socialist is just such a person.

	05-11-2004 11:24									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly But can you name a Floridian, Georgian, Texan, etc who could plausibly capture the Dem nomination in 4 years? That's the problem. I'm not saying give up on the South forever, but it shouldn't be a near-term goal.

Where can I find a list of current and recent governors? There simply must be a current Democratic governor in the south. He's bound to be a dixcrat or a blue dog which is exactly what we're looking for.

	05-11-2004 11:27									#43
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I liked it when McCain dogged out Rumsfeld over Iraq

Rumsfeld was like a fish out of water

He wasn't used to getting OWN3D like that

	05-11-2004 11:27									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Where can I find a list of current and recent governors? There simply must be a current Democratic governor in the south. He's bound to be a dixcrat or a blue dog which is exactly what we're looking for.

the problem is it also needs to be someone with great charisma.

Because even though no one heard of Bill Clinton in 1992 including myself, he had the charisma to pull it off.

	05-11-2004 11:32									#45
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Marion Berry (AR), Sanford Bishop (GA), Brad Carson (OK), Bud Cramer (AL), Lincoln Davis (TN), Harold Ford Jr. (TN), Chris John (LA), Ken Lucas (KY), Mike Ross (AR), Max Sandlin (TX), David Scott (GA), Charlie Stenholm (TX), John Tanner (TN), Gene Taylor (MS), and Jim Turner (TX) are a few names to start with.

That bunch are all deficit hawks who can't be tarred with the same old "tax and spend liberal" tag and they're southerner. I'd prefer a governor but this is a start. What we want is a social progressive who knows how to balance the budget. I'll look up southern Democratic governors and get back to you with a list of possibilities. The possibilities do exist we just have to look for them.

	05-11-2004 11:33									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the problem is it also needs to be someone with great charisma. Because even though no one heard of Bill Clinton in 1992 including myself, he had the charisma to pull it off.

True, true.

	05-11-2004 11:33									#47
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HOw you know all this stuff Oerdin? Are you actively involved in the party?

	05-11-2004 11:37									#48
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http://www.democraticgovernors.org/governors/index.html

That link is to the Democratic Governor's Association which unfortunately is a short list. Still, six are southerners and there are several nonsoutherners who control large states which went red in the last election. If we don't get a southerner then we can at least get a red state and aim for a southern in the VP spot.

	05-11-2004 11:39									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker HOw you know all this stuff Oerdin? Are you actively involved in the party?

I looked it up. They're blue dogs so I know they're worried about spending and the deficit; I just took the names of the representitives from southern states. My involvement in the last election was limited to calling up registered Democrats and urging them to vote. I like working as a volunteer and you get all the pizza and coffee you want.

	05-11-2004 11:41									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I looked it up. They're blue dogs so I know they're worried about spending and the deficit; I just took the names of the representitives from southern states. My involvement in the last election was limited to calling up registered Democrats and urging them to vote. I like working as a volunteer and you get all the pizza and coffee you want.

Cool!

You got a number to the LA volunteer office?

	05-11-2004 11:54									#51
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-Governor Mark Warner of Virginia could deliver a state which Bush just barely won.

-Governor Michael F. Easley of North Carolina is interesting but likely to old and his state was so red I doubt he could even carry it.

-Governor Brad Henry of Oklahoma has an every man look to him and a cute wife which helps to bad Oklahoma
not worth much in EC votes.

-Governor Phil Bredesen of Tennessee looks old and not to vigorous. Tennessee would be an interesting state to pick up though.

-Governor Bob Wise of West Virginia has a receeding hair line and likely won't look good on TV plus he's head of a poor state with few electoral votes.

-Governor Bob Holden of Missouri who I know nothing about. He looks eldarly but has a full set of hair and is in shape.


Intersting non-southern governors include Governor Thomas J. Vilsack of Iowa, Governor Joe Kernan of Indiana, Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico.

That's the main possibilities I can find though research would have to be done to see who'd fit the centrist profile.

	05-11-2004 11:56									#52
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http://www.democrats.org/volunteer/

That's the national volunteer center where you can get local information.

	05-11-2004 11:58									#53
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quote: What we want is a social progressive who knows how to balance the budget.

What you'd end up with is someone who would spend more money on social programs than Bush does on war. Try balancing that budget - and if you do it by jacking up taxes significantly, then you're looking at a one term Presidency and crippling your party.

	05-11-2004 11:59									#54
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Thanks Oerdin!

	05-11-2004 12:04									#55
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd What you'd end up with is someone who would spend more money on social programs than Bush does on war. Try balancing that budget - and if you do it by jacking up taxes significantly, then you're looking at a one term Presidency and crippling your party.

Moderaton is the key my kackling, misguided libertarian friend. You don't add anything to the budget without first cutting an equal amount from else where in the budget. About 80 billion per year can be freed up if we can convince the EU to eliminate CAP if we eliminate our subsidies. I really don't see why we need three new fighter planes when one or two would work just fine, missile defense is just welfare for the defense industry and doesn't match the modern threat assessments so that's another $300 million saved, and so on. There is alot of pork in that there budget. Mine it and the budget can be balanced.

Or at least become closer to balanced.

	05-11-2004 12:12									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin -Governor Mark Warner of Virginia could deliver a state which Bush just barely won. -Governor Michael F. Easley of North Carolina is interesting but likely to old and his state was so red I doubt he could even carry it. -Governor Brad Henry of Oklahoma has an every man look to him and a cute wife which helps to bad Oklahoma not worth much in EC votes. -Governor Phil Bredesen of Tennessee looks old and not to vigorous. Tennessee would be an interesting state to pick up though. -Governor Bob Wise of West Virginia has a receeding hair line and likely won't look good on TV plus he's head of a poor state with few electoral votes. -Governor Bob Holden of Missouri who I know nothing about. He looks eldarly but has a full set of hair and is in shape. Intersting non-southern governors include Governor Thomas J. Vilsack of Iowa, Governor Joe Kernan of Indiana, Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico. That's the main possibilities I can find though research would have to be done to see who'd fit the centrist profile.

Good research.

You see the problem with the South, though. And having lived in the DC area, I have to disagree with you on Warner; Virginia isn't going to be blue in a presidential election any time soon.

You also left Janet Napolitano of AZ off your Governor's list. I can't see her running for prez, but she'dmake an interesting veep.

	05-11-2004 12:14									#57
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My question is, to run for office, is it necessary to always have a bad haircut?

	05-11-2004 12:21									#58
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It's in the bi-laws.

	05-11-2004 12:32									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Marion Berry (AR), Sanford Bishop (GA), Brad Carson (OK), Bud Cramer (AL), Lincoln Davis (TN), Harold Ford Jr. (TN), Chris John (LA), Ken Lucas (KY), Mike Ross (AR), Max Sandlin (TX), David Scott (GA), Charlie Stenholm (TX), John Tanner (TN), Gene Taylor (MS), and Jim Turner (TX) are a few names to start with. That bunch are all deficit hawks who can't be tarred with the same old "tax and spend liberal" tag and they're southerner. I'd prefer a governor but this is a start. What we want is a social progressive who knows how to balance the budget. I'll look up southern Democratic governors and get back to you with a list of possibilities. The possibilities do exist we just have to look for them.

Best bet would be a governor. Could be from the west. I'd give serious consideration towards Richardson if he ran

	05-11-2004 14:48									#60
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I find myself in rare agreement with both Rufus and GePap. Good synopsis Rufus. I do agree with Oerdin though that you can't afford to give up on the South. Not that you have to hinge your national electoral strategy on it, but you are going to lose winnable elections if you cede control of such a large area to the enemy at no cost.

A slightly more subtle point is that you are also going to cut yourself off from a great source of nationally appealling candidates if you cede control of your enemies base areas completely. Take a look at the three big stars of the Republican convention this year, Giulliani, the Governator and McCain. Two of them are from enemy territory. They are both strong politicians who have thrived in hostile territory on their skills and their knowledge of how to exploit the center politically. They are worth a lot more to the party than any number of hacks from safe districts (Kerry) who are clued into exactly the wrong sort of people to be elected in a national election.

Oh, and I agree about Richardson. He did every possible thankless task in the Clinton administration as well as can be expected, and looked good in the process. So he's fat, he's very trustworthy, not partisan and knows how to not offend people in red territory.