07-11-2004 21:47									#121
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Allies are countries whose interests happen to coincide. Such things are only temporary occurences.

	07-11-2004 21:56									#122
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pchang

	07-11-2004 23:39									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Allies support each other. Enemies undermine each other.

Enemies fight each other. Rivals undermine each other. Bush's US and Chirac's France are rivals.

	07-11-2004 23:56									#124
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Also, rivalry in some fields can go together with shared interests in other fields. So it isn't just black and white, allies or enemies.

	08-11-2004 00:47									#125
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Chirac's actions are rather cynical, but not altogether based in fiction. He is trying to solidify Sunni support for France at the expense of the US. He can slag the Shiites all he wants, even though they are a majority in Iraq, because they are a minority in the ME.

I happen to believe that the Sunnis are helplessly disunited in any event -- see the Mideast peace process -- and that Chirac won't gain much by supporting the Sunnis in Iraq. But the policy is coherent, if you believe French and US interests diverge rather than converge (I think they converge, but that's only one man's opinion). Of course, the US takes a more overarching view of this, because it needs to.

Also, I'm trying to put on a Gaullist hat here... Even though other members of NATO besides the US and UK don't spend enough on the military, France spends an adequate amount. France can go along just fine with its non-US and UK NATO allies until those allies prove not up to the tasks that France has set out for them. Taking the law of averages, that occurrence is likely to happen Really Soon Now, but who knows when it will happen? It could take decades for the foreign policy of Chirac to be discredited.

Last edited by DanS on 08-11-2004 at 01:05

	08-11-2004 01:08									#126
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Unfortunately the fact that you moved geographically does not prove that you moved intellectually too, Drake

In fact, I think the case can be made that he managed to leave his intellect behind

	08-11-2004 01:22									#127
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At least I have one to retrieve...

	08-11-2004 01:23									#128
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Yes, it's sad that so many of your fellow right-wingers let theirs turn to dust.

	08-11-2004 02:25									#129
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quote: Originally written by DanS But the policy is coherent, if you believe French and US interests diverge rather than converge (I think they converge, but that's only one man's opinion)

Care to elaborate why you hold that opinion?

	08-11-2004 06:11									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Enemies fight each other. Rivals undermine each other. Bush's US and Chirac's France are rivals.

Yeah, it kind of reminds one of the trading "rivalries" between the French and British in the 18th Century.

	08-11-2004 06:16									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes, it's sad that so many of your fellow right-wingers let theirs turn to dust.

Souldn't that be "our"? I thought you were a right-winger like Imran

	08-11-2004 06:18									#132
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quote: Care to elaborate why you hold that opinion?

In the scheme of things, our direct bilateral relationship is more important than how we relate to each other in these 3rd world hellholes. Consider that each year we do $50 billion in direct business with each other, for instance. It would make more sense to increase this direct business rather than fight over 3rd world scraps.

If France could become an effective counterpole to the US, the basic arithmetic might change. But I think the counterpole option is pretty much a muddled fantasy.

	08-11-2004 06:18									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Yeah, it kind of reminds one of the trading "rivalries" between the French and British in the 18th Century.

I can't remember when we shot at Americans ever since our geopolitical interests have started to diverge. Last I remember, we are still having joint military exercises and a strong cooperation among secret services.

	08-11-2004 06:41									#134
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Spiffor, does it really matter if a Frenchman pulls the trigger on the newly manufactured anti-tank weapon in Iraq? WTF is France financing and supplying the Iraqi resistance?

	08-11-2004 06:54									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ned WTF is France financing and supplying the Iraqi resistance?

I don't think we are stupid enough to waste money by supplying this resistance. The prospects of the resistance are either to be crushed, or to become one of the many warring factions in an unstable Iraq.

Unless you have a serious source proving we finance the Iraqi resistance, I won't believe it.

(Selling weapons is another matter altogether, as we sell weapons to whomever buys)

	08-11-2004 06:55									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Souldn't that be "our"? I thought you were a right-winger like Imran

Exactly, a right-winger like Imran.

The 'Poly right has kinda split

	08-11-2004 08:44									#137
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Imran's not a right-winger anymore than I am...

	08-11-2004 09:54									#138
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But you are a right-wing lunatic nutjob, while Imran is only a right-wing nutcase

	09-11-2004 02:12									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I don't think we are stupid enough to waste money by supplying this resistance. The prospects of the resistance are either to be crushed, or to become one of the many warring factions in an unstable Iraq. Unless you have a serious source proving we finance the Iraqi resistance, I won't believe it. (Selling weapons is another matter altogether, as we sell weapons to whomever buys)

From my understanding, the resistance is being financed by Oil-for-Food money deposited outside Iraq. IIRC, most of the money was deposited in French banks.

	09-11-2004 02:48									#140
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quote: Originally posted by DanS In the scheme of things, our direct bilateral relationship is more important than how we relate to each other in these 3rd world hellholes. Consider that each year we do $50 billion in direct business with each other, for instance. It would make more sense to increase this direct business rather than fight over 3rd world scraps. If France could become an effective counterpole to the US, the basic arithmetic might change. But I think the counterpole option is pretty much a muddled fantasy.

The French will push other things until it actually threatens the direct bilaterial relationship. Until that happens, the French will count on the $50B with the US plus whatever they can get elsewhere at the US's expense.

	09-11-2004 04:03									#141
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quote: Originally posted by pchang The French will push other things until it actually threatens the direct bilaterial relationship. Until that happens, the French will count on the $50B with the US plus whatever they can get elsewhere at the US's expense.

I assume that the $50B refer to the trade between the US and France, which means roughly $25B of imports and the same amount of exports, and for both countries since the trade is balanced. So, you see that the US benefit as much of the trade than France.

As for whatever France can get elsewhere, since we are in a free trade world, largely promoted by the US, the competition is opened to everybody, including France and the US.

	09-11-2004 04:08									#142
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quote: So, you see that the US benefit as much of the trade than France.

Actually, France exports about $10 billion to the US more than it imports.

	09-11-2004 04:11									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Actually, France exports about $10 billion to the US more than it imports.

Link?