07-11-2004 10:51									#31
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Oh, and if you want to strengthen barbs a bit more, start them at 3hp instead of 2. Either by making them start as "regular", or just by adding 1hp to their units.

	07-11-2004 11:12									#32
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Snoopy, have you ever noticed there's an 'edit' option at the top of your posts?

(yeah, I know you're in enough games you'll beat me to emperor anyway ;-)

	07-11-2004 12:19									#33
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Snoopy, you'd be right about expansionists, were there not the agricultural civs. The advantages are very different, but you'll see that in the game, methinks.

You'll have to explain the Celts and Persians thing to me. Frankly, I don't get it.

I would give the barbs more HP and I will with the Keshiks and the ships. I can't, however, strenghten the Swordsman, as players will use it. I have no idea how to increase the experience level of barb units. The editor doesn't seem to have an option for it.

Welcome aboard.

[edit]

First post updated.

Since there are so many players in the game, I'd like you all to post your most common playing times, so we can work on a sensible playing order.

I am there 8AM - 11AM GMT and 3PM - 11PM GMT, sometimes longer.

[/edit]

Last edited by Modo44 on 07-11-2004 at 12:28

	07-11-2004 13:16									#34
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18 to 06 GMT

	07-11-2004 15:53									#35
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Here lately I've been having to make way for the rest of the house at night, so 18 - 24 GMT and ~5GMT - 12 GMT (yes, I keep odd hours - thanks for noticing! ^^)

	07-11-2004 17:56									#36
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oh hours here to play civ




must consult my guru



ahhh excellent

and the answer is - most of the time

	07-11-2004 19:34									#37
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Possibly one turn early morning CT (GMT-6), always turns in the evening 7pm-11pm CT (GMT 0100-0500).

Celts and particularly Persians both have iron working UUs. That's basically why I think they're no worse/better for this game than greeks. I mean, what advantage does a Hoplite have that an Immortal doesn't have? 4/2/1 against 3/2/1 barbarians...

	07-11-2004 19:40									#38
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 I mean, what advantage does a Hoplite have that an Immortal doesn't have? 4/2/1 against 3/2/1 barbarians...

It's all in the traits

And the Celts have a significant advantage over the Persians, being Agricultural But the Persians have nice traits too

	07-11-2004 19:45									#39
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nothing wrong with barbarians

as long as they worship me

and slaughter my enemies

Attachment: barbarian03.jpg
This has been downloaded 56 time(s).

	07-11-2004 19:52									#40
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I can always play 3-4 pm and 3:30-5:30am GMT, and usually a fair amount of other times, my schedule is variable.

	07-11-2004 20:03									#41
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Snoopy, the offensive UUs don't do much good, believe me. The barbs will start fielding Keshiks instead of Swords by the time Immortals or Gallic Swordsmen come to play. Keshiks have 3 defense, and can retreat, but have "only" 4 attack. That's why I find the strong defenders too powerful.

Aqualung, just wait until some Celtic cities get stripped of improvments. The you'll know how being industrious would help. Pady will tell us all, I'm sure.

Paddy, I wasn't really asking about your playing times. I know you don't sleep.

	07-11-2004 20:15									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 It's all in the traits And the Celts have a significant advantage over the Persians, being Agricultural But the Persians have nice traits too

I guess i feel that any civ advantage is useful sometimes and not useful sometimes. With the exception of seafaring, I never understand limiting a particular trait, to be honest; ag is useful sometimes, but not always, just like sci. and comm. and ind. are as well.

Modo, it's not so much that I think the immortals etc. are useful, as that I don't see how the hoplites are MORE useful. Okay, 3 defense, sure - but everyone gets an advantage from their UU, it's the point of the UU. I don't tend to play defensive games against the barbs; I play an offensive game, where I attack their stacks before they get to me. Admittedly this game is a bit ... harsher, i'm sure. But still, the advantage I gain having a Hoplite as defensive UU I lose when we hit chivalry and tactics ... Otherwise I'd have to suggest banning the Ottomans from ever playing any game any time, since their UU is +2 offense.

Anyways, it's not a big deal, I was just saying I thought it was equivalent

The way you'd make the barb unit have more HP is to make a new unit, identical to the swordsmen, but only barb-producable, with the extra hp.

	07-11-2004 20:34									#43
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OK Modo, I see the point of net settle desert, but irrigation doesn't realy cause a problem.

Agricultural civs, demand your rights!

	07-11-2004 20:54									#44
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No way, man. The desert is gonna be empty. Totally. If you could irrigate it, you'd be putting productive cities on it's edges and pushing borders with culture. Taking space from the barbs would be too easy. Sorry, no go.

Snoopy, a 3-defense Hoplite can easily take a 4-attacker when put on a hill. I have played very long with Mounted Warriors (3/1/2) as strong barbs and found that a Spear forted in a Forest was enough to stop many an "onslaught". The point is, your defender will be vet and then elite quite fast, giving him many more HPs than the attacker has. So he can take most 1-1 attacks with ease. With an attack of 4 agains a defense of 3, the Keshik has even worse chances against a Hoplite than a Mounted Warrior against a Spearman. Remember, barbs don't retreat or gain experience. That's why the strong defenders had to go.

	07-11-2004 21:11									#45
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I think that if you're playing a scenario that is intentionally stuck in the iron age for the whole game, then you're right.

If you're playing a game that will progress through that age into the modern age ... the advantage early on is negated by the fact that you *have* an early UU. Despotic GA, lack of ability to compete versus late UU, when the PBEM really happens anyways...

It's to some extent in my mind a difference between SP and MP, i guess. In MP, you win most of your battles somewhere between Feudalism and Tactics. Thus, having a GA then is good; having a UU there is better.

It's not at all true in SP, of course; most SP people either play aggressively in the iron age, or are builders and wait until tanks to fight if at all. But, I think that you'll find, assuming one survives to the middle ages, that the ottomans, the arabs, the russians, have a significant advantage over the greeks and the carthaginians, in a PBEM game. True, I have to build an extra spearman compared to the hoplites; but spearmen are cheaper anyways ... and 3 or 4 keshiks will kill a hoplite just as dead as a spearman.

One of the C3C changes was, as far as I can tell, to increase the randomness of the RNG, meaning that yes, on average a hilled hoplite (3+1.5+1.5=6) will win against a keshik (4); but only about 60% of the time give or take (hp for hp), and the Keshik will win sometimes more than you think it should. That's why I say to give the Keshik more HP. (Compare a spearman; 2+1+1=4, at least an even chance to start with; add in strategic rivers, or a city wall, and the spearman will win too, most of the time.)

	07-11-2004 21:14									#46
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(The point of the above, which I apparently forgot to make, is that I suggest you strongly consider writing this as a scenario rather than as a normal game. Stick us in the iron age *for good*, since you can't upgrade your barbs enough. Give us all UUs that are appropriate to the iron age equivalents of our normal UUs, and cut the tech tree off at 1. Maybe add in a few techs from the middle ages to make some progress, but make those as part of the iron age.

Heck, make it a VP game, or a King game. Have it be "Your king must survive the Barbarian Hordes", or even "Lose one city to the Barbarian Hordes and you're toast!" (Elim, i think barbs can take cities in elim, not sure tho). If you want it to be so heavily focussed on barb warfare in the early ages, then fix it so.

	07-11-2004 21:16									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D Snoopy, have you ever noticed there's an 'edit' option at the top of your posts? (yeah, I know you're in enough games you'll beat me to emperor anyway ;-)

lol yes Actually I tend to write too long of posts if I try to make everything into one post, so I try to break it up a little bit. I do use edit often though

I was quite amazed though that Gpa Troll mentioned he was in nearly as many games as me, ones that he posts every turn and sometimes plays 3-5 turns a day for many of them - and still only has a k or 2 more posts than me, in 3 more years ...

edit: Well, ok, 4k more posts. But still. 5800 vs 1900 in 3 years versus 8 months.

	07-11-2004 21:19									#48
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ahh Mr S. Cat

that old Troll has many strange things about himself

	07-11-2004 21:31									#49
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Snoopy, the general idea is to make barbs strong early on. An they will be, with this setup, believe me. But it's still supposed to become a normal game later on.

	08-11-2004 07:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 True, I have to build an extra spearman compared to the hoplites; but spearmen are cheaper anyways ... and 3 or 4 keshiks will kill a hoplite just as dead as a spearman.

Only if it is a stack of Keshiks attacking all at once. If they come in waves, or if the Hoplites are stacked, Hoplites have a significant advantage...

	08-11-2004 11:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 True, I have to build an extra spearman compared to the hoplites; but spearmen are cheaper anyways ... and 3 or 4 keshiks will kill a hoplite just as dead as a spearman. Only if it is a stack of Keshiks attacking all at once. If they come in waves, or if the Hoplites are stacked, Hoplites have a significant advantage...

My point exactly. Rommel, thanks for stating it so clearly. Snoopy, I've been there, I have seen how it works against those strong barbs.

	08-11-2004 14:10									#52
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Ok, the setup is chosen, the players here. I'm sending the info to Sir Ralph, so he can set us up.

What I still need are Aqualung's playing times to work out a schedule.

I'm leaving today, so the game will remain semi-open until Wednesday morning. Hopefully the scenario file will be ready by then and we can start playing.

	08-11-2004 16:14									#53
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A few remarks:

1) What about additionally forbidding settling on tundra and jungle, and to forbid to clean jungle? I will make sure nobody has jungle in his immediate neighborhood, so tile improvement will be a non-issue. And as soon as you spot jungle, you know, here your world ends, there be dragons. Barbarians are an extra pain to fight in jungle due to the higher defense bonus. And it would add some diversity to the map and add some difficulties with moving wheeled units.

2) I would like to know exactly if there are 7 or 8 players. To leave one spot unsettled would give its neighbors an unfair advantage.

3) I will keep the admin password and send a savegame to the first player (if it's Paddy, I have his email). This way everyone can set his own password.

	08-11-2004 16:26									#54
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I think it's ok to forbid settling in jungle and tundra. But don't forbid clearing jungle, just make it more expensive (times 3 or 4). This way it would still be very difficult to settle there until your empire has grown to support enough workers.

We'll close the game now, to make it 7 players. The playing order still needs to be figured out, though. I'll update the first post and then I'm gone until Wednesday.

	08-11-2004 18:53									#55
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If it's not too late, as an addition or alternative we could simply move clearing wetlands back in the tech tree as well.

	08-11-2004 19:02									#56
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Sounds good to me. Around Invention would probably be ok.

Now I really should get going.

Bye 'til Wednesday.

	08-11-2004 19:28									#57
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If it's going to be around invention it may as well be engineering.

Oh, and Sir Ralph, put Modo last in the rotation .

	08-11-2004 19:44									#58
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My best times for playing are between GMT10 - GMT16.....if Paddy and I are the only players in the Land of Oz (or similar longitudes), it's probably best to put me immediately after Paddy, since he's 3 hours ahead of me.

	09-11-2004 00:05									#59
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I made a map with 8 spots. If until Wednesday no other player shows up, I'd have to replace one of them with a huge desert, water or jungle.

I replaced most of the hills in the deserts with either desert or mountains, not to undermine the no settle rule. The map is huge, but the OCN and tech rate is like in a standard map. Everything you build more, will be hopelessly corrupt. Don't count on as many cities as a huge map usually gives. I moved clearing wetlands to Invention, but didn't change the number of turns needed. Changes in units have been made.

I made sure you have some basic resources within reasonable distance. I didn't care about industrial or later resources, I have seen some of them, but didn't count the deposits. After all you must be punished for playing Conquests. Nobody has a stellar start. Nobody has a very poor start either. But of course not all starts are equal.

I will watch this thread to see the starting gun.

	09-11-2004 04:17									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph After all you must be punished for playing Conquests.