05-11-2004 23:52									#1
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As there was a long discussion about this without a consistent result, I guess a poll won't hurt. Perhaps it will clear things up a bit. The original discussion is here.

	06-11-2004 02:08									#2
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Thanks Modo

	06-11-2004 02:11									#3
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REPLAY!!! REPLAY!!! REPLAY!!!


Come on, Total, Eternal, Forever War has got to be fun!! Or May be a Psycotic Wonder building course.

	06-11-2004 02:24									#4
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I vote for one of the Conquests.

	06-11-2004 02:35									#5
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4 player PBEM!

	06-11-2004 02:42									#6
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4-player PBEM, with 4 AI, balanced by someone who will not be playing. It's the next step from the 1 vs 1 with 6 AI we had in AU 601.

One of the Conquests for SP would be interesting if they weren't so unbalanced in terms of game play. On the other hand, perhaps such a course could lead to some AU-mod-style modifications for future use of that conquest, thereby benefitting the community.

	06-11-2004 03:00									#7
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quote: Originally posted by alexman 4-player PBEM, with 4 AI, balanced by someone who will not be playing. It's the next step from the 1 vs 1 with 6 AI we had in AU 601.

And it'll take forever to finish.

	06-11-2004 03:11									#8
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I have a preliminary question: If we do decide to play a 4 player PBEM (with additions Alex suggests), would it be acceptable to use AU 601 as a ranking? Since it is a PBEM, there is not really any point in pretending it won't be competitive. (Of course, it would be possible to set up both an SP course and a PBEM mini-tourney, and have them run in parallel)

Edit: In reply to modo: No, if they average 1 turn a day, which is quite easy, then they don't take that long. We could have it done by Easter If we use a rapid fire session at the start, then we could have it done by Christmas.

	06-11-2004 03:26									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Krill We could have it done by Easter If we use a rapid fire session at the start, then we could have it done by Christmas.

I believe that. What concerns me is, what year it will be.

	06-11-2004 03:39									#10
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I have question then: How long do you expect your current PBEMs to last? Does it matter so long as it's fun, and you constantly get to play your turns? What will you do if you get bored while playing those games?

Or are you not going to play?

	06-11-2004 03:58									#11
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Believe me, I understand the fun aspect, even if I only just started joining PBEMs. And I will join, should a PBEM be the next AU course - just for the fun of it.

But I honestly wouldn't know what there is to learn. Or do you really think a player barely beating Regent can take on a Deity-level player and have real chances of winning, just because it's a PBEM? Somehow, I doubt that.

I guess such a course could show that a PBEM is deadly for anyone unaware of the human psychology, but isn't that a tad too obvious to teach here? Spend half a year writing DARs for people, just so they know what vicious creatures humans can be? C'm on. Oh yeah, it's great fun because of the unpredictable human nature. But that's no hot news either, is it?

	06-11-2004 04:06									#12
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quote: Or do you really think a player barely beating Regent can take on a Deity-level player and have real chances of winning, just because it's a PBEM? Somehow, I doubt that.

using those exact skill levels, not really, but if they understand the basics then they can use the PBEMs as practice. Thats what I did

And about writing DARs, That is not the entire reason to write them, or people would never bother to have written them in the first place They write them for the comparison of strategy and tactics in game, for their (the players) learning. If other people learn, then thatis just a bonus

	06-11-2004 04:13									#13
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Yeah, but SP games don't take half a year all that often. You can learn the basics in PBEM, but you can learn them much faster and with more direct help in SP games. Adding the PBEM thing to it does nothing but slow down the process.

Sorry, but I'd rather have the no wonder game and an AU course repeated than play a single PBEM. Especially if some of the best players just won't play another PBEM.

	06-11-2004 04:16									#14
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That is why I suggested running the MP and SP courses in parallel

	06-11-2004 04:30									#15
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Yeah, but with a long playing time and some important contributors missing from the PBEMs, the learning value of those is suddenly down in the cellar, big time. What stays is the fun part, so Sir Ralph would be pleased. Unfortunately, it doesn't help much when you're trying to improve your skills.

	06-11-2004 04:42									#16
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Why are virtually none of the PBEMs in that forum played with AI civs?

	06-11-2004 05:17									#17
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Too easy to exploit, too easy to kill (not so much AI to AI trade pretty much kills them). Basically not worth it, except for some special purposes (a punching bag comes to mind).

	06-11-2004 11:49									#18
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MP vs SP again

I see no reason why you can't have both choices at the same time. These are radically different games (MP vs SP). Running both at the same time just gives people more choices.

PBEM is hands down the best because the AI is HI. And I would also declare that it makes the most interesting DARs.

The PBEM format only has one drawback. Commitment.

With existing commitments to spouses, children, employers, ect. Having time to commit to being a "proper" CIV MP player is difficult if not impossible. Which is why SP is the "Only Way For Some to Play."

Pleae don't leave us out again.

NOTE: If the AU does run two classes at the same time, they have to be completely different courses. SP is way quicker and can spoil MP no matter how vigilant everyone is. And delaying the start will only punish SP participants.

	06-11-2004 18:00									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky With existing commitments to spouses, children, employers, ect. Having time to commit to being a "proper" CIV MP player is difficult if not impossible. Which is why SP is the "Only Way For Some to Play."

most of my AU games end up being old AU courses by the time I finish them, so I would go with replaying an old course (updated to C3C just might draw a few more in). Im still playing AU504 - just about cleared the continent....

Although in theory PBEM requires not too much time, I can not in all honesty sign up knowing I can give less commitment than I would anticipate, and expect of others.

So, does AU 'move on' with a MP game, and run a parallel revamped old course. Nothing to stop you playing both - and would provide a feast of DAR's which would enliven the forum again.

(More WW2 DAR in the Strategy thread please - we are on tenterhooks here... (or there?))

	06-11-2004 18:54									#20
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i voted the no wonder building, I would extend it to no capturing either: if there is a city with a wonder u may not capture it.

otherways updating al the former courses wouldn't be bad.

Greetz

	06-11-2004 21:58									#21
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I voted for Nathans "maximize wonders" game, already yesterday. It's the only scenario I might be interested in, because I didn't play a UP game for maybe 2 years.

quote: Yeah, but with a long playing time and some important contributors missing from the PBEMs, the learning value of those is suddenly down in the cellar, big time. What stays is the fun part, so Sir Ralph would be pleased. Unfortunately, it doesn't help much when you're trying to improve your skills.

to the fun part; but please don't associate the lack of the scholastic aspect with me, it wasn't me who brought that up. My concern was and is the coexistence of learning and fun, as much as possible.

	06-11-2004 22:03									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph to the fun part; but please don't associate the lack of the scholastic aspect with me, it wasn't me who brought that up. My concern was and is the coexistence of learning and fun, as much as possible.

Another flame?

I didn't mean to do that and I'm sorry if that's how it sounded to you. My use of language is biased by experiences with mathematical logic, where separate sentences mean just that - separate sentences. Thus, I didn't feel like I was associating you with anything but the fun part . Again, sorry.

	06-11-2004 22:12									#23
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which ever is chosen, can we include a resolution on the cavalry and subs that are ongoing at the moment?

It will mean waiting until they are resolved, but this may put some impetus into that.

Last edited by The pirate on 07-11-2004 at 14:07

	06-11-2004 22:15									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Another flame?

I have really no desire to drag that discussion in another thread. No, I didn't think that you wanted to say it this way. I just wanted to make sure, everybody else understands it right. No need to apologize.

	07-11-2004 03:48									#25
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My vote goes to the PBEM Diplogame. It'd be nice to at least give it a try.

	11-11-2004 21:27									#26
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I couldn't vote, but if i could have voted, I'ld vote for 4-person fast pbem.

	11-11-2004 22:04									#27
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Not that I am totally obsessed or anything , but a 4-player PBEM using the Ancient Civs mod, and starting with one of these two configurations might be fun:

1. Babylon, Persia, Phoenicia, Egypt
2. Babylon OR Persia (delete the other), Phoenicia, Egypt , Hittites

The AI civs would be far enough away that no one player could really take much immediate advantage.

	11-11-2004 22:11									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Not that I am totally obsessed or anything ,

REally? I was under the impression it had pushed you beyond madness...

	12-11-2004 01:34									#29
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I actually voted for a Replayed course on a new map, before I voted against it

	13-11-2004 02:56									#30
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VOTED:A succesion game training

Why, becuase I have never done this....