06-11-2004 22:05									#1
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I've heard countless praises about EU2 for years, particularly on these boards. So, after tasting the pleasures of RTW for weeks, to the point I feel I've explored most of the game, I thought about another good strategy game, and remembered all these praises.

So, well, got EU2, and tried it. So far, I'm extremely split on this.

On one hand, there is just SO MANY excellent ideas, I can't understand why they weren't copied elsewhere. The peace treaty treatment, the core regions concept, the fact that you can't annex territory during the war, the attrition, the cost of war, the importance of diplomacy, the realistic-like pace of the game...

But on the other hand... Oh my... It's ugly, and doesn't help the immersion. And then, what is this ATROCIOUS interface ? 0_o
It's absolutely not intuitive, confusing, not customizable nor scalable, and, really not intuitive again. It's a pain to try to do anything with this. A horrible pain.
And, lastly, there is an horrible lack of information, or perhaps that there is information, but that it's made all confusing due to the interface. There is plenty of things that I don't get, and plenty of time something happens and I don't know why.

For example, I started to play with Byzantium, and then the Ottomans attack me (not surprising). I've battles with them, and sometimes a battle is easily won by my army, and the next time, the exact same battle is lost badly.
Other times, I have a much bigger army, with much more cavalry, I'm on the defensive, the indicator shows that the enemy has a worse defense/attack than me, and yet, my morale drops much faster, and I sustain more casualities, and I lose.
It's feeling totally random. Or it's perhaps that there is plenty of factors, but they aren't clearly displayed. Or anything. But the point is, I don't understand why I win, or I lose, or why this, or why that.

The information feedback is horrible. I had to go bankrupt to actually know that I was taking loans (as they are automatics, and you aren't warned). I mean, I understand this game is deep and complex, and that I won't all get right from the start, but truly, the lack of information and the horror of the interface are such than I already gave up several times just out of irritation.
Each time I come back, because I think "damn, it would be so cool to do that, and this, and that", but each time, I quit soon, because I'm stuffed with things happening out of the blue, and the exhausting fight against the UI.


So, as I suppose there is plenty of vets here, what are the first basic points that aren't obvious, but are important, to which I should pay attention, and the more-or-less hidden factors that make the game seems so random and irritating at times ?

	07-11-2004 02:55									#2
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If it makes you feel any better I didn't like EU2 much at first either but I liked it enough to keep playing it. It took me at least 5 games to get a good feel for EU2. Just stick too it. You can find most information in the ledger(red book).

	07-11-2004 06:09									#3
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You can adjust most of the message settings in the options menu during play. If you want you can even set it up so the game pauses when a loan is about to be taken out. I'll admite the interface does have a learning curve but if you give it a chance then you figure it out and the game ends up growing on you.

Once you learn the ins and outs of the game it turns out to be a much deeper and more logical game then most strategy games on the market today. Go to www.europa-universalis.com to see dedicated forums for EU2 and to write in forums the games designers and programers continue to use plus you can pick up the latest beta patch or mod there.

	07-11-2004 07:26									#4
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Well, I'll try to hang on then. Thanks

But I admit that not being able to know WHY my superior army is being beaten, is something that tends to make even the very start of the game quite annoying.

	07-11-2004 08:29									#5
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Cavalry will almost always beat infantry all things being equal. If things aren't equal then it usually means the other guy has a higher land combat level meaning his armies have a higher level of technology then yours. Another thing to look out for it terrain as mountains or swamps make things harder for the attacker. Lastly remember your slider settings as they can greatly affect your leaders' abilities and your army's morale.

Remember to use the tutorials as they will teach you what you need to know and go to www.europa-universalis.com as they have faqa which will explain the most interact detail to you. Just hang in there past the learning curve and you will likely find you really like the game.

	07-11-2004 15:40									#6
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Also, I strongly suggest to start learning games as either Austria (peaceful, diplomacy), Ottoman Empire (wargame, WATCH YOUR UPKEEP COSTS!!!) or Castile (Most easy one IMO, little of all plus exploring).

It will make things a lot easier, because you can concentrate on the important things without being buggered up by loans and the like.

About losing fights:
The Ottomans have many great generals in the early and middle game, while the Byzantines only get one after some decades.
Maybe thatīs the point?

	07-11-2004 18:30									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Well, I restarted once again, and this time it went better.
But still, the same irritating "what's the heck is affecting the battles ?" thing stroke again.

Some examples :

1) I'm attacking Bulgaria :



Ok, that's the start. I've got higher morale. I've more soldier, both in infantry and cavalry, than him. The picture shows that I'm having a 7-1 fighting rating while he's having only 2.

Still :



I'm losing. 0_o
How ? Why ?


2) Same situation in another province :






Losing. Doh ? 0_o
And then, I reload the game just before this battle. I do it again.
This time I win easily. Doh ? o_0


Well, after a lot of fighting, two bankrupcy, an extenuating war, I finally crush the Ottomans. Several years of peace happen, but I still want to retake Anatolia.

After a long time, my economy is stable, my troops regained their morale, and I've got a good general.
So I attack again.

And then, again...





Ok, I see that they have a "strong" morale, when I'm only "disciplined".

But well, I have an fighting rating of 9 plus 2 (ELEVEN total) while they have one of ZERO, I have more than twice their total numbers in cavalry alone, plus three times their total numbers in infantry. I'm attacking on plains, which make full use of cavalry.

And nevertheless, I'm losing 0_0


Can anyone make any sense with this ?

	07-11-2004 18:55									#8
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Hehe, I wouldnīt bother with those values displayed, I doubt they indicate anything.

Just two things: Your Stability is "1", meaning two grades worse than good. That hugeley affects fighting.
And itīs only 1427, I mean you didnīt pass a decade yet...
So darn early in the game you shouldnīt be expecting to beat the ottomans with byzantium. They have lots of great generals, which can kill any army you field against them. It usually takes five to seven attacks to kill a general.. (depending on difficulty).
Also the ottomans have a land rating of about 7 to 8, while the byzantines have one of around 4. That also affects battle outcomes.

At last, yes, thereīs a random figure in each combat, as there is in almost any strategy game.

What version are you playing with? Did you get the latest patch?

	07-11-2004 19:00									#9
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I'm playing with the last patch, I think. It's 1.08 if I'm not mistaken.

Isn't the stability affecting directly the morale ?

What are these "land rating" ? Aren't they part of the "fighting rating" displayed in the corner of the battle box ?

As for the general, how can I check if the Ottoman army has a good general, or if it's only a regular captain ?

(and is it possible that all these factors CAN compensate for being outnumbered 5 to 1 by an army led by a competent general, with half of the soldier being cavalry on plain ? 0_o)

(I know, I'm asking plenty of questions ^^ It's just that I like to understand what's happening, and for now I'm feeling playing Voodoo, just doing things and wondering if it will work like I suppose it will, or if it will goes in a completely different direction due to plenty of hidden factors that aren't displayed and I haven't a clue about ^^)

	07-11-2004 19:05									#10
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Raise stability also check the army funding by clicking the helmet icon to the left of your flag. Make sure you're funding your army 100%. Next begin adjusting your sliders towards land and quality to get better moral for your armies. Moving to Aristocratic nd centralization also helps.

	07-11-2004 19:07									#11
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I'm currently trying to play Ethiopia in the grand campaign with limited success. I'm trying not to loan shark but also to prevent Oman from Colonizing the horn of Africa before I do. That isn't eay since my monthly income is only around 5 gold.

	07-11-2004 19:10									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Akka What are these "land rating" ? Aren't they part of the "fighting rating" displayed in the corner of the battle box ?

Since it's 1419 you'll both have a land warfare level of 1. You can go to the tax menu and see your rating by holding the arrow over the '?" next to the slider. That little ball on the slider lets you adjust your tax rate and decide which areas to research (land, navel, trade, infastructure, etc...).

	07-11-2004 19:50									#13
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Well, it's still the same thing against Karaman.
But this time, with a stability of +3. In Smyrna, when I'm still the one having the advantage of numbers in cavarly, and in Shock Rating.

I'm starting to REALLY be fed up to randomly lose and win. Is this all the game long, or is it just due to the initial settings ?

	07-11-2004 21:18									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Akka What are these "land rating" ? Aren't they part of the "fighting rating" displayed in the corner of the battle box ?

No, itīs part of your politics sliders. Click the coat of arms to get to the slider menue and look for "naval power vs. land power". It has the biggest effect on your fighting skills.

quote: As for the general, how can I check if the Ottoman army has a good general, or if it's only a regular captain ?

Pause the game and hold the mouse cursor over the enemyīs army (only works if the army is alone, meaning not fighting or stacked). It will display the numbers and a name in brackets if the army has a general. If it doesnīt, it has a random leader.

quote: (and is it possible that all these factors CAN compensate for being outnumbered 5 to 1 by an army led by a competent general, with half of the soldier being cavalry on plain ? 0_o)

Yes, Murad II. can win the strangest battles... Like I said before, an enemy leader can only be killed by attacking him over and over again with cavalry. You will lose every single battle, but if youīre lucky youīll reduce his numbers enough to eventually kill him.

This becomes more important when playing either england or france, for their everlasting war is decided once all leaders of one side have been slain...

Heed my advise: Play Castile or Ottoman Empire for the start, to get the hang of things. Donīt start with countries that historically ceased to exist in that period

	07-11-2004 22:01									#15
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Nah, I just CANNOT let the old Byzantine Empire die. They don't deserve it. They have to live !

Anyway, I destroyed the Ottomans (serve them well :P), and I've conquered all Karaman but Tarsus. Quitted last time because 4000 rebels scum has been able to defeat my 10000 soldier (half cavalry) lead by my Emperor

But I'll check these slider with land/naval rating.

Again, too bad the interface is so atrocious, particularly when it comes to such informations, which aren't displayed and you have to know/guess. I just dream of such a game with the RTW graphics, battle, map and interface ^^ (and era, too bad they chose the most uninteresting piece of history :-/)

	07-11-2004 22:17									#16
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Hm, they also made games of Roman era (Pax Romana), early middle ages (crusader kings), industrialization era (victoria) and early 20th century (hearts of iron). So I guess thereīs something for everyone.

Btw, I think the era of renaissance, exploration and trade empires was the most interesting one

Plus, I cannot understand how people say the interface was bad. I know many saying so, but I canīt see their problem... I like the UI, for it is easy to learn and easy to handle. Also the game works excellent in terms of information. You arenīt supposed to know whether you win or you lose before the battle, just like in reality. It would be boring if you could determine the outcome of a war before it has begun
Also check civ2 / smac, reloading before battles produces different outcomes...

	07-11-2004 22:19									#17
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As a rule of thumb:

Infantry determines morale loss, while cavalry determines enemy casualties. So if you want to kill an enemy, use cav, if you just want to win the battle, use inf.

	08-11-2004 03:15									#18
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EU2 is mainly about economics not about superior tactics in battle. Most wars are decided by sheer manpower and money not tactics. I don't see why you are so upset over losing battles where the outcome is by no means certain(10k vs 4k). If the 4k were in defense terrain like mountain(brown province) and they had all infantry vs you having all cavalry they'd even be favored to win I think. If you are losing you can always retreat too before you lose totally.

Byzantine Empire is one the hardest nations to play in all of EU2. They are small, but have decent economy/manpower. However they have fairly bad slider settings IIRC and worst of all they start next to the Ottoman Empire! I learned to play by doing a couple American Civil War games as Americans. If you want to go on a conquering spree play the Mughal Empire in 1492 scenario or Ottoman Empire as they are very strong nations for war mongering.

	08-11-2004 04:27									#19
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Well, I'm upset because of the lack of information feedback from the game.

When all the indications I can get are green (superior numbers, adequate constitution of army for the terrain, superior leadership, equal morale), the game is basically telling me I'm going to win. And then, one time out of two or three, it goes apparently completely random, probably because there is plenty of hidden factors that I can't imagine.

It's irritating and frustrating. Strategy and planning consist of knowing how the world work, at least roughly, and making plans according to that. Playing russian roulette, with the "well, no luck this time", isn't fun.

The difficulty itself isn't really a problem. I'm playing on easy, so that I can get used to the mechanics while playing.
What's frustrating, is losing and not knowing why. Again, it makes the game feels random and arbitrary, not strategic. If there is a reason, at least make it clearly visible. If not, then it's excessively random.

	08-11-2004 05:15									#20
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Maybe itīs meant not to tell you what happens, to give it a more authemtic look. In those times, the monarchs sent their generals out to battle, waited for some days and hoped thereīd be someone left to tell you about the outcome

	08-11-2004 13:41									#21
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Two things I would suggest -

1) Don't start out playing Byzantium. Even if you really really want to. It just isn't worth the frustration if you're still trying to get the feel of the game as you have a lot of things you have to get right straight away to survive let alone prosper.
England, France, Aragon, Denmark, Sweden or Austria would all be much better choices starting out. Give the Byzantines another try once you have a better grasp of the system.

2) In the early game before nations have had much of a chance to tech-up combat does tend to be much more random. If the opposing forces have a better setting wrt monarch/stability/sliders then you might have a big problem until things start to even out a bit.
If you can get 10:1 odds in a battle you'll annihilate the enemy almost instantly. A spare 10k Cav wandering around (if you can spare them - As the Byzantines you probably can't early on) targetting his new-built formations of 1000 men is a godsend.
You were probably just unlucky losing to his 2k Inf with your 11k Inf/Cav though - most of the time this would have gone in your favour.
Cavalry is great in plains terrain but very poor in mountains/forests - the rule for those terrain types is to get there first with infantry if you're going to fight there.


Above all, don't give up on it. EU2 really is one of the better strategy games out there for a very good reason.

	09-11-2004 05:15									#22
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Ok, I'm feeling better to know that it's mainly during the early game that it's so random ^^

Well, I'm starting to getting the feel of it, and enjoying the game. After some game of alliances, I diplo-annexed Serbia, Athens and Moldavia, and some nifty rebels from made me absorb the rest of Turkey (but the grey one, allied to Golden Horde... Don't want to mess up with these guys ^^).

So, discovering about merchants, diplomacy and so on. Getting the grip. Getting some dose of addiction, and the desire to get back my core provinces (wonder why I have Azerbaijan in them, but not Naple :hmm: ).

Prepared a big attack against the Ottomans, allied with nubia (they were asking it for decades, anyway), massed armies, and then declaring war against them (that's coward, I know, but I suppose it's a widely used method ?).
They couldn't even defend themselves. Lost all their provinces north of Arabia and east of Quattara.
BUT...
I'm now at 93 % victory, and I consider it's time to end the war.
But these idiots refuse. I ask for only 52 % of territories, barely one half of the victory, and they refuse 0_o
So I'm wondering : what can I do ? I mean, they are already beaten to the pulp, two third of their country occupied, and I've 1000 ducats in reserve with a steady positive income if I need more military power. And I only ask for 52 out of 93 % of victory. Why don't they accept, and how can I force them to accept ?

	09-11-2004 06:34									#23
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It's a bit of an oddity with the AI that they can often refuse rather generous peace deals only to come back a month or so later and offer you far more than you'd asked for.
I'm not sure if they still receive a stability hit if you're asking for substantially less than you've earned (might have to check the 1.08 readme file) but if they do then keep it up. Once their stability is into the red they'll start getting revolts and a government collapse will give you all of the provinces you occupy.
If the stab hit was removed in the last patch then you might just have to keep at it for a while - continue smashing any newly-built forces (they should be pretty small if you control most of their territory, hence income) and sieging provinces. They should collapse fairly soon.
If they have allies hit them too as they may feel they have a chance of coming back otherwise.
Similarly if they're still at war with anyody else and occupy another nations territories.
Same goes for their navy - if they still have one undefeated try engaging them a few times. Be careful though - from what I remember they start out with a lot of ships.

One last thing - try a save and reload. The EU2 AI has a tendency to go 'to sleep' after you've been at it for a while so it's a good idea to reload every decade or so.

	09-11-2004 16:47									#24
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Damn, I find myself locked into an absurd situation...

I've conquered ALL Mameluk empire. Every single of their provinces are occupied by my troops, except one that is occupied by Algier, and one which is occupied by Nubia.

I've 99 % victory. I still only ask them every three monthes for 52 %. They still refuse the peace (I wonder how, they don't even have any land units left, and they don't control anything...), and seem to still not take stability hits enough for the government collapsing (I wonder WHERE this government is...).

I can't have a go at their navy, if they have any (I've quite neglected mine own, a bit too busy on land ^^), and I can't reach their Oman allies, because of the countries in the way that don't want to sign a military access (and I don't feel like I should yet another war, with a +5 war exhaustion already in the way...).

When I started the war, and only took them their territory up to Jordan, they were asking me for peace against four of their provinces.
Now that they have been entirely conquered, they only accept a peace against three of their provinces (all three that were included in the previous deal of four...)

The victor being obliged to cow to the vainquished, simply because the non-existent vainquished is able to say "no" indefinitely...

It's getting a bit ridiculous...

Last edited by Akka on 09-11-2004 at 16:56

	09-11-2004 17:14									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

No, if they didnīt control anything, youīd have 100%. They almost surely have occupied an enemyīs province (check if they are in a war against someone else) or have a colony left.

What you could do is try to trigger the civil war by decreasing your nationīs tolerance towards the enemieīs religion. This will mean some of the provinces you occupied will revolt, and if youīre lucky they get the "government falls" event which leaves you owning anything you control.

	09-11-2004 17:34									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ah, yes, they had Mekka under siege, but not still conquered.
I was fooled because there wasn't the health bar under the fortress ^^

Well, I'll see to it, and see if they listen to reason, then.

	09-11-2004 17:59									#27
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Conquered Mekka. Made peace with Oman, so now they are really alone against me.

No change at all.

I'm starting to be seriously stuffed with that. Most of their territories are now without my graps since more than five years, and I still can't do anything with them, nor sign peace, and as such have plenty of unrest due to war exhaustion (wonder why, it's not really like my home provinces had a lot of efforts to do...
And some utterly beaten ennemy can hold all my possibilities just because they can say "no" as long as they want, with no ill effect.

Edit : asked to some guys on the official forums.
Seems that the AI will sometimes simply refuse anything that is higher than half the victory rating. I don't know if it's a bug or a design decision, but it sure is completely stupid...

Last edited by Akka on 09-11-2004 at 19:48

	09-11-2004 20:16									#28
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You now have 100% war score? If not, try demanding different provinces that make up less than 50% altogether. If yes, it should work with anything less than 75% demand...

	09-11-2004 21:11									#29
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Nah, I don't have 100 %. Ottomans have a last one province (Sahara) which I am unable to reach. I could settle a peace by asking for four provinces that made up for 48 % of victory, and the Ottomans would consistently and systematically refuse anything worth 50 % of more...

Now, I'm wondering on even another point : I'm now level 2 in land tech, infrastructure and trade. But according to my sliders, I will gain the next level in each, in a VERY distant future (something like 1560 for infra, 1730 for trade an so on).
I've an income of roughly 30, with 5 going to military, and all the rest being distributed between the different fields (except for stability, which I don't require), and only 1,5 going to the treasury.
Each time I can, I make the donation of 200 ducats to boost the research, but with 15000 to reach...

Considering the prices goes up during the game, how am I supposed to reach even the level 5 before the end of the game ? 0_o

	09-11-2004 22:26									#30
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lol, fear not!

donīt pay the 200d boost! It isnīt worth it!

Concentrate on key techs, like land or infra. For most countries the amount of money that goes into research is determined by monarch skills and neighbourīs techs anyway. When you change the policy sliders, the tech rate changes quite a bit, and with trade and infra going up, your income also increases greatly.

Also the tech level costs vary extremely, they are neither linear nor exponential. In Land tech, levels 11 to 14 cost almost nothing, you will rush through them within ten years, while it takes decades to reach level 5...

Just ignore any predictions in the budget screen, let the future come.

When you centralize your country, you will decrease research times, and whenever another country reaches a tech level you donīt have, your research budget in that category rises automatically at no cost (industrial espionage )