07-11-2004 03:29									#1
	Conservative principle(s) of Justice. Are there any? Support Apolyton

Since this arose in another thread, I'll post it here.

My position is that conservatives do not have coherent principles of justice that do not rely in some implicit or explicit way on religious belief.

What's wrong with having your principle of justice rely on religious belief? The problem is that it's unprovable and relies on faith.

For the record the standard justification of Liberalism is Rawls' theory or some variant of it like Dworkinian equality. The fundamental principle is equality in deciding the arrangements by which society is to be ordered, and the irrelevance of particular interest in deciding it (that's the veil of ignorance thing).

Conservatives seem to have nothing like this. They rely on some crap like Locke which involves a lot of religious hand waving about natural rights.

	07-11-2004 03:35									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You might get more people to bite if a) bothered to construct an arguement in this first place and b) made said arguement less of an obvious troll.

As it is 3/10

	07-11-2004 03:35									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Again... broad sweeping generalizations...

Gangs in the city of Chicago are killing people left and right in continual drug wars... and these people would consider themselves liberals, and vote democratic... is this justice to you

But seriously... I would agree that some Conservatives base their thinking in purely religious grounds... but so do religious liberals... You seem to imply that religious people are automatically conservative, and non religious people are liberals... You must look at everybody as individual instead of lumping them all together because it fits your simple view of the world

	07-11-2004 03:35									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Conservative justice:

Might makes right.

Power is just.

Last edited by General Ludd on 07-11-2004 at 03:47

	07-11-2004 03:37									#5
	Tired of ads?

I don't think gang members vote, Ming.

	07-11-2004 03:39									#6
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't think gang members vote, Ming.

Then why was it such a close election? There obviously are alot of those gun tottin' democrat thugs out there.

	07-11-2004 03:43									#7
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Then why was it such a close election?

Maybe it had a lot more to do with the fact that both candidates sucked

	07-11-2004 03:44									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ming Maybe it had a lot more to do with the fact that both candidates sucked

	07-11-2004 03:45									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

- Punitive law enforcement is more effective than reform

- Everyone has the right to own a gun

- Abortion is immoral

- Religion (as long as it is Christian) is an acceptable influence on government and schools

- Big government (almost always referring to welfare programs) is bad

- Military means to accomplish end goals is acceptable

- Foreign treaties and interests always take a back to our own interests in the international world

	07-11-2004 04:00									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: My position is that conservatives do not have coherent principles of justice that do not rely in some implicit or explicit way on religious belief.

quote: Conservatives seem to have nothing like this. They rely on some crap like Locke which involves a lot of religious hand waving about natural rights.

Granted.

However, given your stipulation, one has to answer the question about whether it is possible to contrive a coherent principle of justice without relying upon religion in some matter.

Even something so simple as proportionality, and the desire for rehabilitation can be found rooted in religion.

I suggest, rather than making this thread a religious troll, that you ask the much better question, what is a unqiuely conservative concept of justice?

	07-11-2004 04:02									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, Ted is the only one who has even attempted to answer the question.

quote: - Punitive law enforcement is more effective than reform - Everyone has the right to own a gun - Abortion is immoral - Religion (as long as it is Christian) is an acceptable influence on government and schools - Big government (almost always referring to welfare programs) is bad - Military means to accomplish end goals is acceptable - Foreign treaties and interests always take a back to our own interests in the international world.

I'd accept that conservatives believe these things, but that doesn't answer the question. What are the general principles that inform these specific claims.

For example, why does everyone has the right to own a gun? What moral principle is being violated by restricting gun ownership?

	07-11-2004 04:02									#12
	Remove this text

quote: Even something so simple as proportionality, and the desire for rehabilitation can be found rooted in religion.

As you well know, Ben. Utilitarians argue for these things.

	07-11-2004 04:04									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: As you well know, Ben. Utilitarians argue for these things.

You can find Utilitarian positions on anything.

	07-11-2004 04:04									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: You seem to imply that religious people are automatically conservative, and non religious people are liberals...

I imply no such thing. My position is:

(a) Conservative principles of justice worth the name necessarily sneak in religion.

(b) Liberal principles need not.

(c) Of course one could hold liberal views for religious reasons, but that is beside the point, since such reasons are as useless as the ones informing conservative views.

	07-11-2004 04:06									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: You can find Utilitarian positions on anything.

Sure, but that doesn't address the point. I'm asking conservatives to justify their moral beliefs in a coherent way that cannot be found to rely on religion.

I don't think that's too much to ask.

	07-11-2004 04:06									#16
	Suffering from ads?

I offer a different argument.

Liberal principles of justice are fundamentally incoherent insofar as they remove religion from their basis.

	07-11-2004 04:06									#17
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I'd accept that conservatives believe these things

Uhhh... but many conservatives don't... so you would be wrong

	07-11-2004 04:07									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Liberal principles of justice are fundamentally incoherent insofar as they remove religion from their basis.

If that were true, then all principles of justice would be incoherent as all would rely on faith. If you want to go down that road, that's fine. But that is a vote for moral skepticism rather than a defence of conservatism, which is what the original question asked for.

	07-11-2004 04:08									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: I'm asking conservatives to justify their moral beliefs in a coherent way that cannot be found to rely on religion.

Why?

Religion, is coherent, even if it is unproveable by empirical means.

	07-11-2004 04:09									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

So what DO they believe?

	07-11-2004 04:09									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Uhhh... but many conservatives don't... so you would be wrong.

It doesn't matter. These are particular claims, I want general principles. People can sometimes differ over the moves from the general to the specific for empirical reasons.

I want general principle(s).

	07-11-2004 04:09									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: For the record the standard justification of Liberalism is Rawls' theory or some variant of it like Dworkinian equality.

Your gods, you pagan

Just because you don't call your blind faith religion doesn't mean you don't belive in said texts for the same reason. You read those books and they made sence to you, some read the bible and it makes sence to them.

	07-11-2004 04:10									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Then the first question you have to ask, is what is a fundemental principle of conservativism?

	07-11-2004 04:10									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Religion, is coherent, even if it is unproveable by empirical means.

Then it is useless. One can construct any number of theories which are logically coherent, but give us no reason to believe them. Coherence is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition in this case.

	07-11-2004 04:11									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why? Religion, is coherent, even if it is unproveable by empirical means.

Doesn't coherence require:

a) internal consistency?
b) external consistency (not violating observable facts) ?

Which religion do you have in mind? Theravada Buddhism?

	07-11-2004 04:12									#26
	Put an end to popups!

Rawl's theory of justice is socialism, not liberalism, in that Rawl's defines justice in terms of equal advantages. He then says that unequal wealth is inherently unjust because it advantages the wealthy. To a socialist (like Al Gore), inequality of wealth is per se cruel and unjust without more.

True liberalism teaches free enterprise, equal opportunity and the ability for anyone to succeed and become wealthy regardless from where they started. It arose out of a feudal order that accorded social status and wealth based on birth, not merit. Liberalism at its core founds its belief on the equality of all before the law, allowing individuals to rise in social status and wealth according to merit.

Today's true liberals in the United States are known as conservatives. American "liberals" have become socialists.

	07-11-2004 04:13									#27
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why? Religion, is coherent, even if it is unproveable by empirical means.

from Merriam Webster

quote: coherent - 1 a : logically or aesthetically ordered or integrated :

if anything could be described as INCOHERENT, it would be religion Ben.

	07-11-2004 04:13									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Suppose one considers my view to be representative of Conservativism,

Striker's list:

"Punitive law enforcement is more effective than reform"

I'll say no. I favour rehabilitation over punishment.

"Everyone has the right to own a gun"

Again, I'll say no. There may be very good reasons to require training of eveyone who owns a gun.

"Abortion is immoral"

I'll agree with this one.

"Religion (as long as it is Christian) is an acceptable influence on government and schools"

All religions ought to have an influence. To favour only Christian influence, is to violate the establishment clause.

So no.

"Big government (almost always referring to welfare programs) is bad"

Agreed.

"Military means to accomplish end goals is acceptable"

And I disagree. I prefer isolation to intervention.

"Foreign treaties and interests always take a back to our own interests in the international world."

This I agree with.

	07-11-2004 04:14									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker - Foreign treaties and interests always take a back to our own interests in the international world

You say this as if it's a bad thing.

	07-11-2004 04:14									#30
	Tired of ads?

quote: Just because you don't call your blind faith religion doesn't mean you don't belive in said texts for the same reason. You read those books and they made sence to you, some read the bible and it makes sence to them.

That's not much of an argument. Down that road lies relativism, which is useless in these debates.

Someone might read a KKK pamphlet and have it make sense to them. Does that mean they are right? No. Believing does not make it so.

But I still want someone to come up with a simple principle that captures the moral essence of conservatism.

For example, Egalitarians think that no one's welfare is more significant than anyone else's. That's a simple principle from which they derive their views on distributive justice.