08-11-2004 09:00									#1
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia We would then like to make a new proposal, which we hope might appeal to the High Council more. We'll put Soc Psych, pre-accepted, on the table in 2146. The Gaian Union will open 2147 and accept it, change to Doc: Loyalty, and send it to us pre-accepted. The GU agrees not to build the Command Nexus or the Citizens' Defence Force. In turn, Sparta undertakes not to build the Xenoempathy Dome or the Pholus Mutagen. The Gaians are free to trade Social Psych and Doc: Loyalty to whomever they want, but with the same prohibition on the recipient building the CN or the CDF (this is only with regards to trading Doctrine: Loyalty). We are free to trade Doc Loyalty to whomever we wish. Both techs will be treated as "Common Property" so that any income - or additional techs - derived from their trading to 3rd parties will be shared equally between the Gaian Union and the Spartan Federation. How does this sound, venerable Lord Illuminatus? Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta.

This is at least superficially fair, and worth careful consideration.

The Xenoempathy Dome can be a very powerful military SP, as it allows fungus and roads to merge for our purposes, allowing all of our units to quickly move across the battlefield, and also facilitating colonization. On the other hand, we will not encounter random native life if we build that SP. The Pholus Mutagen is handy, but probably not worthwhile, and comes too late in the game to worry about for now.

I have already stated my opinions on the Command Nexus and CDF. Though the right to build them is valuable, trading away that right is reasonable, for the right price.

	09-11-2004 00:01									#2
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I am not sure, but I would decline. It is obvious that Spartans want to build TCN - and us giving them Doc: Loyalty is probably the only option they ahve to fulfil that (Angels would require tons and tons of incentives to change their plans). I would decline because it is still a tech for a tech, with added clauses that prvent us from building TCN and CDF - CDF is very valuable, as is the option of TCN to deny it to Spartans - all they offer us in return for not building this projects is Pholus Mutagen (which is way up high in tech tree and Xenoempathy Dome, which is also far and is a double-edged sword for us). If they want our agreement on not building CN and CDF they will have to offer substantially more, and perhaps more for Doc: Loy.

	09-11-2004 00:33									#3
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If we give Spartans Doc: Loy, they will grab TCN and CDF (they are probably researching Doc:Loy and will redirect to Int: Int - they ahve Ethical Calculus)- therefore if we don't agree, it will hurt them a lot - they won't be able to build CN and probably CDF, which we must not give to them, than if we do agree on this trade - which will without any doubt grant them a lot of power. I would prefer abandoning this opportunity, just to hurt their plans.

My proposals: accept their proposal (but only agree not to build TCN (with their agreement not to build TXD) - argument that TPM is too far up in tech level tree and therefore exclude CDF too) only if they offer a large incentive - Doctine Flexibility and 10-25 credits or Ethical Calculus.

I will respond in 9 hours time to them, if there is no significant opposition to this.

Time is runing out for them, as turn is in their hands, so pressing them might work (I don't think they can convince Angels or Morgans more easily, nor trade for it from AIs).

	09-11-2004 02:23									#4
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Sounds good!

	09-11-2004 03:10									#5
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A persistent theme we must remember is we have no reason to be nice to the Spartans, however friendly they may seem. We should deal only for our benefit and whatever the Spartans get out of the deal is a necessary evil.

	09-11-2004 09:50									#6
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Spartan promises not to build the Xenoempathy Dome or Pholus Mutagen, even if they are kept, are essentially useless since this doesn't prevent anyone else from building them. That in mind, I don't like the idea of limiting our options in case of new circumstances, nor of handing the Spartans a tech that grants them an SP they want that could be used against us.

	09-11-2004 09:51									#7
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Let's analyze this closely:

We gain:

1 tech that is available to us to research next, immediately
Less competition for the Xeno Dome and Pholus Mutagen
Potential secondary trade revenue from onward trading of Doc: Loyalty and Social Psych by the Spartans (presumably to the Morganite and Univ/PKs, though their stubbornness on contact info is aggravating)


We lose:

The ability to trade Doc: Loyalty freely (restrictions on SPs for the recipients)
The ability to trade Doc: Loyalty and Social Psych without benefiting the Spartans
The ability to build the CN and CDF


The Spartans gain:

Doc: Loyalty (though they could probe it from Yang at the cost of their presumably fragile treaty)
Less competition for the CN and CDF
Potential secondary trade revenue from onward trading of Doc: Loyalty and Social Psych from us (not that we have any trading partners they don't right now)


The Spartans lose:

The ability to trade Doc: Loyalty and Social Psych without benefiting us
The ability to build the Xeno Dome and Pholus Mutagen


Our edge:
We gain a tech that is better for us than Doc: Loyalty, hopefully. Secondary trade revenue will probably be low, as they could have already traded Social Psych, and would be wary about trading Doc: Loyalty.

Their edge:
They have less competition for their prize SPs, and somewhat strangle our trading options, increasing our dependence on them.

	09-11-2004 10:03									#8
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Secret Projects we can build right now:

Merchant Exchange
Command Nexus (in progress by the Hive, coveted by the Spartans)
Virtual World (in progress by the Univ)


Near future SPs:

Maritime Control Center (2 techs off)
Planetary Energy Grid (2 techs off)
Citizen's Defence Force (3 techs off)
Neural Amp (3 techs off)
Planetary Datalinks (4 techs off)
Longevity Vaccine (4 techs off)
Xeno Dome (4 techs off)


Of the SPs available to us in 4 or less techs, I would most value the Longevity Vaccine (it's to us what the VW is to the Univ), the Planetary Datalinks for free techs, and the Neural Amp (viable native garrisons, and potentially viable native defense in the field).

Also note that no faction besides the Morganites and us has completed a secret project. We're doing pretty well!

	09-11-2004 10:10									#9
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I am awake. I guess that my proposal is okay then? Note that Sparta probably is researching Doc: Loy, has EthCal, and upon our transmission they will most likely redirect to researching Int: Int, practicaly granting them those SPs. Spartans have probably accumulated Supply Crawlers, and will have no trouble building CN before Yang.
Another tech we could gain is not valuable of giving Spartans Doc: Loy and speeding their path to Int Int, in effect giving them TCN and CDF which will increase their morale and give them free PD, which is very pwoerful for a momentum faction.

	09-11-2004 10:14									#10
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My verdict:

The Spartans need to sweeten the pot. They gain more secondary trading benefits and rights, and gain more SP rights. They need to remedy the SP rights restrictions, and offer more, though besides ECs, I'm not sure what else they would offer, as another tech would be too much for them, most likely. Another tech for the lopsided SP restrictions and trade restrictions might be viable.

	09-11-2004 10:30									#11
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quote: I have news from the High Council. Your second proposal has been rated even weaker than the initial one and is not acceptable. Promising you not to build TCN and CDF is infact granting you two powerful projects, while Sparta has wowed not to build SP which is way high up in the tech tree, and the other is also far and a SP with both good and bad benefits for our faction, which seriously diminishes it's value. Having taken that in consideration, we would give up on two projects that are very powerful, especialy for a momentum faction, while Sparta would not give up anything particulary valuable from our perspective. If our theories are correct, giving you Doctrine: Loyalty would also ensure you would get Intelectual Integrity since you would redirect your efforts. Gaian Union therefore can agree to provide Spartans with Doctrine: Loyalty, which would trigger huge growth of Spartan stregth and importancy, under following conditions, which would sweeten the deal. Spartan Federation shall send Social Psych preaccepted to Gaian Union in 2146. Gaian Union shall redirect its research, enabling it to send Doctrine: Loyalty to Spartans preaccepted in 2147. Gaian Union will agree on a ten year embargo on received technologies (expiring 2158) as well not to build Command Nexus. However, Sparta will have to provide us one of following options of sweeteners to convince us that granting such power to Sparta will not go without gain for us: 1) Sparta will add Doctrine: Flexibility to the preaccepted technologies (with Social Pysch) and 15 energy credits. Doctrine: Flexibility will not be bound to tech embargos. 2) Sparta will add Ethical Calculus to the preaccepted technologies. 3) Sparta will add Lal's and Morgan's commlink frequencies as well 10 energy credits to the preaccepted offer. 4) Sparta will add 200 credits to the offer or pay 20 energy per turn for 15 turns. Unless Sparta accepts one of the sweeteners there will be no deal. -Lord Illuminatus

Sent to Spartans.

	09-11-2004 10:32									#12
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I intentionally made the EThCal cheapest option for them. If they do agree, we can get IntInt next turn! If they not, at least they will not gain immensly from the deal.

	09-11-2004 10:34									#13
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I wonder if they'll be so foolish as to claim to be unable to obtain Morgan's commlink. If so, they'd remove any guilt I have about being stubborn on trade with them.

	09-11-2004 22:41									#14
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No guilt here, I think we are being generous with them. I'd be willing to say that TCN is the single most important SP to the Spartans. Once they have TCN and Intel Integ, they can switch to Fundy and pump out trained (read as elite) infantry. Elite infantry is key to Spartan power. I personally believe we should pull the offer and go for TCN ourselves as a denial strategy. But I am obviously late to make this point, so perhaps we should wait to see their response. I just hope they deny us.

I also think TCN is undervalued. Considering how cheap this SP is and the fact that it essentially give a +25% to offense and defense for infantry. That makes your 1-2-1 garrisons fight like 1-3-1 garrisons, and 8-1-2 rovers hit like 10-1-2 rovers, etc. For the thinking man's game, I think it is at least on the level of the CDF, if not better.

Other than that, i would go for the NAmp to protect our future IoDs

Last edited by livid imp on 09-11-2004 at 22:56

	09-11-2004 22:44									#15
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Also, has anyone read the Fusion Proposal? Can you say trap?

	09-11-2004 22:49									#16
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Fusion Proposal? What do you mean?

	10-11-2004 00:36									#17
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Indeed Ouro what do you mean? Spartans only sent Snodassmen to do some warmongering there, I haven't seen anything else.

	10-11-2004 00:46									#18
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Found it.

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia The Maniac Manifesto - Fusion Power by 2160 "The Maniac Manifesto" is a plan for a joint Venture of the Data Angels, the Gaian Union and the Spartan Federation. It is an effort to acquire the following prerequisite technologies for Fusion Power: - Superconductor - Pre-Sentient Algorithhms - Advanced Military Algorithms - Cyberethics - Intellectual Integrity - Optical Computers - Adaptive Doctrine - Polymorphic Software And then finally: - Fusion Power This endeavour will require open, direct and frank co-operation between our three factions, with extensive research leapfrogging. The Junta believes that it is possible and conceivable, given the trust and integrity we have observed both in the Gaian and Datatech factions. The reason for this rather bold and open proposal is the fact that the Morganite faction is spiralling out of control. It has constructed Planetary Transit System and is in the process of effectively doubling or even tripling its population by abandoning and rebuilding bases to gain the boon the PTS gives. We can all attest to the fact that the Morganites are a force to be reckoned with, and the Spartans are willing to give up their slight lead in the tech race to level the playing field with the Morganites. I have appointed the Spartan Chief of Administration, Lieutenant Colonel Googlie, to act as a special envoy on this matter: he will be conducting official diplomacy by my side, as we feel that one person alone can not organize this extraordinary project between three separate factions. Yours sincerely, and awaiting for your response, Major Kassiopeia, Senior Diplomatic Officer of the Junta of the Spartan Federation. Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta. Message edited by: Kassiopeia on 11/08/2004 13:53:42[Server Time/GMT -8 Pacific Time]

quote: Originally posted by Googlie: To further elaborate: Fusion has 2 prerequisites: Superconductor (string #1) and Pre Sentient Algorithms (string#2) Yang will have researched Superconductor in 2154, so that technology can be "lifted" any time therafter PSA needs Advanced Military Algorithms and Cyberethics AMA needs Optical Computers (Yang has that) and Adaptive Doctrine, which in turn needs Polymorphic Software (Yang has that) and Doctrine Flexibility (Sparta has that) So for the first string, we need: 1 probe action to extract Polysoft from Yang and then one of us researches Adaptive Doctrine 1 probe action to extract Opticals, then with AdaptDoc, research Advanced Military Algorithms, then wait for string # 2 to catch up Cyberethics needs Planetary Networks (we all have that) and Intellectual Integrity, which needs Ethical Calculus (Sparta has that) and Doctrine Loyalty (can have next turn) So the second string needs: 1 of us to research Int Int, then pass the baton to another who'll change to Cyberethics Then AMA and Cyberethics get passed to the the team that will research Pre Sentient Algorithms, which, when completed, goes to the team that has received the probe fruits of Superconductor, who changes to Fusion Power Thus in 14 years we are researching 6 techs among 3 factions (and 1 or more of those techs may be extractable from the Uni or PK's through probe action or trade). With leapfrogging, it is attainable (even without assuming that the Gaian Union and Data Angels are able to maintain a faster research rate than the Spartan Federation) How about it? Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie Commanding Officer, Spartan Engineering Corps; Commanding Officer, Spartan Special Forces

quote: Originally posted by Googlie: The Gaian Union has been rash in turning down our proposed Social Psych <<>> Doctrine Loyalty trade that would have let the Spartan federation build the Command Nexus. We don't know if you yet have Yang infiltrated. If not, here's his production readout from last year. How long will your Hatchlings and Boils - or Green Scouts - last against Commando or Elite Impact Rovers? Let's face it. Hoever well you might have been doing in destroying a Hive scout or two or colony pod, it's only Sparta, with Elite troops, that can handle the Hive for the foreseeable future. And for that we need the Command Center before Yang gets it, without the additional trammeling of extra techs going from Sparta to Gaia, or energy credits. We always have the option of retreating into "Fortress Sparta" - we're strong enough that Yang won't take us on. But you don't have that option. There's still time to execute the trade, but from our perspective, our last offer is our best one Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie Commanding Officer, Spartan Engineering Corps; Commanding Officer, Spartan Special Forces

	10-11-2004 00:50									#19
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I won't have time to evaluate their proposal for some hours, but Yang is indeed producing several 4-2-1, 4-1-2, and (4)-1-2 units. However, I have no worries about being able to hold him off given his very limited access to our continent. The Spartans overestimate their military edge.

	10-11-2004 01:50									#20
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"And for that we need the Command Center before Yang gets it, without the additional trammeling of extra techs going from Sparta to Gaia, or energy credits."
I say we ignore it. They are overstating Yang's power and understating their abbility. We can try lower the landbridge to Hive and ourselves off, once we've got a seaformer. Morgan is running away, but then we would trample under Spartan boot. I ask for clearance to reject it.

Last edited by Illuminatus on 10-11-2004 at 01:59

	10-11-2004 02:21									#21
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That's what it sounded like. They want us to research tech for them, and give them fusion. And then kill us.

	10-11-2004 04:19									#22
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This wouldn't be the worst idea necessarily. The Morganites do have some major SPs. I would only consider it if they inculded a non-aggression pact for say 10-20 years after completion/sharing of fusion. It might favor the Spartans more than us or the Angels, but it would pull us all up to deal with Morgan.

	10-11-2004 04:47									#23
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A recent insight: the Spartans are geographically *much* more vulnerable to the Hive than we are - Yang has founded two bases on the Spartan mainland (still assuming they're in the northeast) whereas he hasn't gotten into our mainland. We can choke Yang off, but the Spartans must fight him directly.