18-11-2004 10:33									#31
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is that right Sir

looking forward to your upcoming poll as you take your Rod of the Empire

	22-11-2004 15:30									#32
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woo hoo Long Live the Celts

- Paddy the Scot




oh please remember in the tracts of time that these great nations became staunch allies and friends forever

they were known for their amazing technological breakthroughs, medical miracles, and leading our people into the stars

yes, we forsee a great future with now that this has come to pass



well my knowledge on these matters is provided by my good friend Arthur Dent

	22-11-2004 19:34									#33
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Greetings Senators

Our initial Emperors have a an issue that needs to be settled at:

Emperors at 20 Paces

lets please keep this discussion clean


Paddy of Rome

	23-11-2004 23:54									#34
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Long live Arthur Dent!

	24-11-2004 04:02									#35
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Based on the questions raised by "20 Paces" I motion that an investigation be started, or at least that the Emperor Aquavian Lungarius answer to the Senate on his actions.

I formally request to know the circumstances, that led to the peace treaty with the Celts, that now binds this Senate. We already know the reasoning and the results. We also know how the former Emperor views the voice of the Senate. So, most glorious Emperor Aquavian Lungarius, which is it? Did the heathen Celts beg for peace with mighty Rome; or did you seek peace against the will of the Roman Senate?

Long Live Rome!

	24-11-2004 05:43									#36
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Honourable Senator skrobism, I have answered your charges here.

Furthermore, it has now been 42 hours since Emperor Modo branded my good self as a coward, and 36 hours since I demanded he withdraw the slur and apologise unreservedly. He has since steadfastly refused to do so, and in fact has continued to justify his position and claim that I lacked courage in carrying out the duties of Emperor.

I demand justice. I request that the Senate issue a summary judgement stripping the Emperor Modo of his honourary title of Emperor, disbar him from the Senate, and confiscate his estates and all worldly chattels.

I ask not to profit from his property.....only that his daughters be provided to my household as slave girls to do with as I please.

	24-11-2004 06:31									#37
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I think part of the problem is nobody exactly understands the definitions of "Senate", "Emperor", and "Republic".

Rome at no point had both a meaningful Senate and an Emperor. Her first emperor was Julius Caesar, although he did not formally claim the title. Augustus Caesar claimed it first.

The Senate in 300 BC ruled Rome directly, as an oligarchy in all but name. They ruled Rome militarily as well as domestically, but in the military their hand was much ... weaker. Two Consuls were always invested with equal military power, their armies the sum total of Roman projected military power; other military forces stayed at garrisons throughout the Empire, which at this point consisted of the Italian peninsula and the beginnings of an advance into Sicily and Iberia. Rome at this point endowed two consuls because she was afraid of the power of a single person; the two consuls had equal power and equal military might, and equal ability to use it. When seperate, they retained full control of their legions; when together, they retained full control on alternating days of the entire force. This often led to comical situations, in which one Consul would support aggressive action and one defensive, and although they would never directly counter each others' moves, they would always seek to reign in the other's actions.

Only rarely did Rome feel the need to place full power in the hands of one man. Cincinnatus, the great Roman general a century and some beforehand, was the first, and perhaps the model for all to come after him, Dictator. Such a man is given control over the Roman forces for a short period of time, in the hope of defeating whatever dire enemy is at hand. Then he relinquishes power voluntarily to the Senate.

Both Consul and Dictator share two things in common: Nearly ultimate power, and an ultimate responsibility to answer to the Senate for their actions. Neither, however, is required to answer to the Senate before the end of their term. Of course, if they wish to be elected a second term (as Consul - nobody would ever be elected again a Dictator), they should follow the Senate's instructions, or else they should show good reason for their acts. However, during their term, they do not generally answer to the Senate, nor do they generally come back at all.

Don't forget, we're talking of a time period when it takes *months* to travel from the "action" to the home city of Rome. Asking the Consul or Dictator to return and check back every so often would be a horrible waste of time and make it impossible to lead ones' forces effectively.

I suggest that we simply ask ourselves: Did Aqualung make the decision he should have made? Given the circumstances (and perhaps ask him these circumstances), should he have done what he did, and would we have agreed with it?

If the ultimate answer is "Yes", then we are agreed that Aqualung has acted in good faith with his post, and we should ask him to continue his course (once it comes up again). If the answer is "No", then perhaps we reconsider his right to the position.

I also suggest we define the position we have made. Perhaps "Emperor" is a mistaken term, particularly if the Senate expects the degree of control some members have expressed the desire for. Perhaps "Consul" or even "Princeps" are better titles?

	24-11-2004 06:52									#38
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I also suggest we determine whether the voice of the Senate was as it has been purported to be.

The threads of Aqualung's emperorship are pitifully sparse in direction. Each Senator speaks with a separate voice, but there is no clear Voice of the Senate. Look at the poll -- over half of the Senate would have Emperor Aqualung expand into the north (8 out of 15), yet now it is claimed he should have made war on the Celts (which essentially precludes settling in the north effectively). The most substantial Voice of the Senate is to invade the various islands around Rome - which does not sound like a desire to invade up North. Individual Senators did indeed post their desire to invade the Celts, but the Senate is not a body of individuals, so much as a One greater than the sum of its parts.

Perhaps in the future, debate should be allowed for a greater amount of time, and should be moderated by someone -- the Princeps, I would call him or her -- who can encourage debate on specific points, so as to cause the Emperor to have a concrete understanding of the desires of the Senate. I think it is a lack of clear voice that is the problem here, not specific malfeasance on any one person's part.

	24-11-2004 07:11									#39
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this is why we should have had elected consuls originally, but alas we do not.

The war with the Celts was voted for during Modo's reign which he undertook.

I do feel that we need more not less debate and perhaps a review of the laws of our nation.

I do feel however in the light of new information regarding Aquavian Lungarius's peace treaty with the Celts which he has made public in the 20 paces thread, that he was right to make peace with the Celts and it was in Romes best interests that he did so.

	24-11-2004 07:30									#40
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I have consistently asked for the opinions of the Senate, yet as Senator Snoopy rightly points out, opinions have only trickled in. I would welcome a more active and lively debate by more members of the Senate.

The objective of the Poll (as I see it) is to get a general feel for the Senate's views on how to proceed. As Senator Snoopy alludes to, and as we all know from our vast combined experience, there are many things to be done, but not all can be done at once. Hence we assign priorities. The final decision, as laid out in Senator PPP Paddy's Book of Law, is in the hands of the Emperor.

	24-11-2004 11:48									#41
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As a Counsul of Rome, Senator Jagjef supports Aqualung's actions. The Celt is for later Emperors to deal with, Carthago is our main goal to defeat early.

	24-11-2004 11:53									#42
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well said Senator Aqua

Now has anyone seen Emperor Conious ???

The days of his reign are trickling over

	24-11-2004 14:21									#43
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Senator ChrisiusMaximus, in the absence of any movement on the important issues at hand, I respectfully ask you to draft a censure motion of former Emperor Modo to be put forth at the next full Senate session. Indeed, an emergency Senate meeting may be in order to deal with the renegade Modo.

	24-11-2004 15:14									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Senator ChrisiusMaximus, in the absence of any movement on the important issues at hand, I respectfully ask you to draft a censure motion of former Emperor Modo to be put forth at the next full Senate session. Indeed, an emergency Senate meeting may be in order to deal with the renegade Modo.

ahhh Senator Modo, does this former Emperor really need censuring ???

He also served as your Consul / Advisor, when you were Emperor.

He served well as our initial Emperor, and is again serving Rome here in the Senate.

	24-11-2004 15:17									#45
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* Nimitz signs the senate roll.

Edit: uh oh, wrong place O'well.

	24-11-2004 15:31									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Nimitz * Nimitz signs the senate roll. Edit: uh oh, wrong place O'well.

Senators of Rome

please be upstanding for Senator Nimitz

I hope you will all make him welcome to Rome

	24-11-2004 20:11									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot ahhh Senator Modo, does this former Emperor really need censuring ??? He also served as your Consul / Advisor, when you were Emperor. He served well as our initial Emperor, and is again serving Rome here in the Senate.

Indeed he does, Senator PPP. Please read the charges in the relevant threads and you will remember the slanderous behavious and disrespect for his peers this former Emperor has shown!

	24-11-2004 20:14									#48
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ahhh well this matter is heading down a dark and lonely old road

I had hoped that by setting you both up in ya own thread, well that you both could get this matter resolved / sorted etc

for the Glory of Rome

	24-11-2004 20:19									#49
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Yep lets take the censure issue to the 20 paces thread please

	24-11-2004 20:20									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot Now has anyone seen Emperor Conious ??? The days of his reign are trickling over

I strapped on my sword about 12 hours ago.

Im getting a handle on the reigns as we speak

	24-11-2004 20:21									#51
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No, that is not the right procedure. The 20 Paces thread was used to discuss the issues and state our respective case to interested parties, which we did exhaustively.

But the Senate Floor is the forum that must consider a formal censure motion.

	24-11-2004 20:34									#52
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Ok then well lets call for a vote. I would suggest you set up a poll and link it back to hear and the Senate can vote on the measure.

Im all for Roleplaying lets just make sure it doesn't get out of hand and we get Ming'ed

	24-11-2004 21:20									#53
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Senator Modo:
Your arguments grow weak. It was you who left the northland denfensless and forced Emperor Aqualung's hand. You called the Emperor's courage into question and called him demagogue. Apologize already or face censure! That is unless you have a daughter each of us.

Emperor Auqualung71:
I see that you sued for peace. Although this was against the wishes of the Senate, and you did have time to consult us, I think that the Senate might have agreed with your proposed actions anyway. Peace with the Celts is the course that must now be followed if we wish to defeat the Carthaginians swiftly.

I accept your apology to the Senate. It is a testiment to your courage and honor. I ask that others do the same.

To the esteemed Senate:
I motion that we decide how issues like this (suing for peace and war making) be delt with in the future.

I also motion that November 30 be declared Emperor Aqualung Day. A day to celebrate the prosperity and glory that his reign brought to Rome. Let the Streets of Rome run red with wine! ALL HAIL EMPEROR AQUALUNG!!!!

	24-11-2004 22:05									#54
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism Senator Modo: Your arguments grow weak. It was you who left the northland denfensless and forced Emperor Aqualung's hand.

Oh, you mean the two Legions that were ready to attack Celtic settlements, when I left the Empire to my successor? Or did you refer to the two Archers I left deployed south of the Celts? All four of which he has moved away from that territory.

quote: Originally posted by skrobism You called the Emperor's courage into question and called him demagogue. Apologize already or face censure! That is unless you have a daughter each of us.

No, I don't have daughters. I take it that the Empire doesn't like truth to be spoken. So be it, go ahead with the censure. But don't forget to do the same about Emperor Aqualung's reign, which forced an unfavorable peace treaty against the directions of the Senate!

	24-11-2004 22:13									#55
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...Great now I have to come up with some legalise. Grumble grumble... Hold on...

	25-11-2004 00:13									#56
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I motion that the Senate vote on the Censure below:
-------------------------------------------------------------
It is the Sense of the Roman Senate that -

On 11.03.2004 06:46, in "The Great Roll of Emperors"; and on 11.08.2004 04:30, in the "Roll Of Senators", Senator Modo44 agreed to live by "The Grand Book of Rome - Our Law". Implicit in these laws is the obligation that the Emperor set an example of high moral standards and conduct himself in a manner that fosters respect for the members of the Senate and Emperors - past and present; and Senator Modo44 has egregiously failed in this obligation, and through his actions has violated the trust of the Roman people, lessened their esteem for the offices of the Emperor and Senate and dishonored the offices which they have entrusted to him.

Be it resolved that:

1. The Senator made false statements concerning the honor and courage of Emperor Aquavian Lungarius in order to cover up his previous failed attempts to eradicate the Celts;
-On 11.03.2004 13:01:
"[I] played too short to see the Celts completely eradicated."
-On 11.22.2004 00:41:
Directed at Emperor Aquavian Lungarius, "Though courage is not one of your virtues, methiks (sic)."

2. The Senator made disparaging statements concerning the honor and importance of this Senate body;
On 11.22.2004 12:56:
"Oh, you mean the long term benefit of making the Senate unimportant in directing the Empire?"

3. No person is above the law, and the Senator even though he is a past Emperor himself remains subject to penalties for this conduct, and called for this censure himself;
On 11.24.2004 11:05:
"go ahead with the censure."

4. Senator Modo44, former Emperor of Rome, by his conduct has brought upon himself and fully deserves the censure and condemnation of the Roman people and the Senate; and by his signature on this Resolution, the Senator acknowledges this censure, and unconditionally apologizes to the Roman People, the Senate and the Most Glorious Emperor Aquavian Lungarius.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

It is my hope that by putting this to a vote we can put this ugly issue behind us and proceed with the reign of Emperor Conius.

Long Live Emperor Conius!
Long Live Rome!

PPP Paddy The Scott, does this get put to a poll or an open discussion on the floor?

	25-11-2004 00:48									#57
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Two points with regard to this motion for censure Senator Skrobism.

Firstly, you quote the first Emporer as saying,

"[I] played too short to see the Celts completely eradicated."

I think he is merely pointing out here that his term was too short to actually achieve totally eradicating the Celts!! and lets face it that is a fact. So there is no need for redress on that point!!

Secondly you quote the first Emporer,

"Oh, you mean the long term benefit of making the Senate unimportant in directing the Empire?"

I think you will find if you carefully reread the post in question, that Senator Modo was not actually saying he thought the Senate was unimportant but rather he was suggesting that was Senator Aquavian's stance.

To my mind Senator Aquavian did indeed in the heat of the argument slur the Senates importance and Senator Modo was amongst others who pointed out to him the error of his ways.

That post you quote was indeed Senator Modo pointing this out to Senator Aquavian, and so again there is no charge here to answer.

	25-11-2004 00:50									#58
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I went ahead and set up the poll

Should Modo44 be censured?

	25-11-2004 01:27									#59
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Most honorable Senator ChrisiusMaximus and my esteemed countrymen:
The quote that refers to the failure to conquer the Celts was concerning previous attempts by Senator Modo44 to play this scenerio. His just contempt and desire to rid the world of the pathetic Celts is obviously tied to past failed attempts. Now that he failed again, though understandably so, no one could expect to wipe out an enemy within the first 25 years of our empire, the Senator attacks the Glorious Emperor Aqualung71.

Senator Modo44's statements are that the actions taken by Emperor Aqualung71 have made this Senate unimportant. It is an insult to think that any Emperor could diminish the importance of this great body.

Emperor Aqualung71 did slur the Senate and Senator Modo44 in the heat of debate. It would have been right to call for his censure but the Honorable Emperor Aqualung71 has already apologized if his words and deads insulted this Senate.

Senator Modo44 instead continues to not apologize for his slander against the former Emperor and dares to ask for his own censure.

I say give the Senator what he wants.

	25-11-2004 01:28									#60
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Long Live Rome!