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The 1212 Problem
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fallout
fallout2
Airport Inc.(there is virtually no press on this game but its so good)
no reviews because i think we all know why there good.
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Do you consider SMAC to be non-civ? If so, it's my choice.
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I've played both demos, and they are Not Fun. Corsairs is a poor Pirates! clone, of exceedingly low quality. Diplomacy is, well, not as good as the real board game because half the fun lies in being smug and secretive and making secret agreements. That dimention is lost...
I'd say wait a few months and buy Shogun: Total War when that comes out.
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:13
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It depends on my mood. There are several categories:
RTS: Total Anhnhilation. It's a classic, and because it allows for third party units, maps, effects, etc., it has a fan base that appears to be as large and rabid as Civ's. Like Civ, you can still find it on store shelves, years after its release.
Humor: Worms Armegeddon. I can't describe it; just buy it.
FPS: Currently, System Shock 2. If you've played Quake and Unreal, you have no idea what you're in for.
Board Game: Monopoly. Yeah, it's lame--I just don't care! 
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Diplomacy sucks, according to Cybergnu (I think), who bought - and returned - the game.
IMO, you should buy Final Fantasy 8; there's more to life than strategy games 
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Cthol
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"I'm a fucking idiot who complains all the time."
Oct 1999
time: 07:13
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move this to the other games forum. ASAP.
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bomberman
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I would say Stacraft and the Brood War expansion. The game has been out for 2 years and I still play it often. I would also have to say the Jagged Alliance series. Great turned based strategy with very entertaining characters. Also , in JA2, the way they successfully mixed real time with turn-based gameplay was spectacular. It also had some very good role-playing aspects.
bomberman
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:13
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Uncle Sparky: Total Annhilation.
(How's that for a game title?  )
Total Annhilation (NOT that 'Kingdoms' version) has a large active fan base that has produced 100's of maps, units, scanarios, tile sets (terrains for map making), AIs, etc.. You can even meddle with the 'physics' of the game (gravity, etc.). It's been selling since 1997, at least. Here's two representative sites:
For maps, go to: http://www.tamec.org/index.html
For units, AI, etc., go to: http://www.tauniverse.com/upstartdesigngroup/
(You'll note this last is a hosted site--the other sites aren't bad, either.)
edit: I just noticed the multiplay question; the answer is heck, yes! I only play the AI myself, but you can have up to ten players and AIs, in any combination. I think.
[This message has been edited by The Mad Monk (edited April 04, 2000).]
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:13
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Since I've never played Starcraft or Age of Kings, I poked around the TA forums for posts from people that have; here's a good one:
quote:
TA wins hands down for the following reasons;
1)Maps: TA maps are huge by comparison and with things such as true LOS, a three
dimentional realm (land/sea/air), gradual elevation changes that actually affect
movement beyond the occasional "choke-point", it has a much stronger basis for a real
time strategy game.
2)AI: While I believe that SC's is technically more intelligent, it relies too heavily on "I
get to start with a hundreds times as much stuff as you do" bit in the campaines, and
gets too much of an advantage with SC's consentration on individual units and their
special abilities ("spells"). The computer will always be able to give specific instructions
to multiple individual units far faster (err, "simultaneously" is more the case)than any
human and tends to make grunt/zergling/flash "rushers" of us all.
3)Scale: Along with the fact that it's largest available play area is only about a third of
the size of Rhode Island, SC's limitation of 12 units in a group, combined with the
necessity to micro-manage individual troops means that it's more of a "small unit
tactics" game rather than one of "galactic conquest". Besides, there's nothing like a
good "hairball assault" to end a scenario.
4)Resource Management: The boon and bane of most of these sorts of games, but any
SC player or AI can be defeated by simply waiting for them/it to run out of resources. It
can take hours and even days, but it is inevitable behind a strong enough defence. On
the other hand, your TA opponent will only get stronger the longer you wait, even on
"starvation maps" because TA even allows you to scavenge the scraps. The bottom line
is, TA let's you spend more time playing/fighting the game and less time "getting ready
to".
5)Longevity: TA was designed to go on and on, the ability to add units and new AIs
means that as long as people are playing it, people will keep on playing it. SC is doomed
to boredom that the occasional map or campain set will do little to correct, regardless of
how clever (or annoying) the speech-clips get or how pretty the cut-scene videos are.
I still play both, but SC is more of a mid-level intoduction to the genre rather than a real
challenge and I use it as a relief game when I've gotten my butt kicked ten times in a
row by TA. Its also a great one to play with my nephews until they are ready for the
"big-time".
"Let no oversight or weakness go unrewarded".
------------------
"Encumbered by idgits, they pressed on." Sheriff Pat Garrett; Young Guns II
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To this, I culled from other posts:
* Hotkeys: you can assign a 'squad number'(1-9) to units and factories, with no limits on unit types or group size.
* Enhanced Patrol: You can program factories with complex, repating patrol routes, that the units automatically follow as soon as they are made.
* 500 unit limit: Apparently SC has a 200 unit limit
* 'Alliance Symbols': You can have up to ten players in TA (up to nine AIs), that can be set as two massive alliances, ten armies out for themselves, or anywhere in between. Oh yeah--500 units apiece
* Map size: I know this was hit in the quoted post, but I would like to add to it. Original TA has a maximum map size of 40*40; thats in 640*480 screens. 8*8 is considered 'small'; 3rd party designers have pushed the limit to 63*63, and are hinting that larger is possible. In addition, the maps, are considered to be 20% larger with regard to aircraft, so they don't have to stop short at the edge of the map.
* Naval Units: TA has them, complete with subs, amphibious unit, hovercraft, sonar, torpedos, and depth charges. Units that are underwater are invisible unless you have an underwater unit nearby. Did I mention torpedo bombers?
* Unit Types: Original TA has room for roughly 230 different units. I forget how many units are included, but I think it's around 130. 3rd party designers filled in the rest pretty quickly, and figured out a way to squeeze in another twelve...
* Unit Selection Options: there are hot keys to select all units, all armed units, all aircraft, all armed aircraft, all construction vehicles, etc.
* LOS options: Premapped or blacked out, True (to life), Circular (can see through hills), or permanent(everything is revealed)...
There's more, but this is long enough.
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Monkey
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Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Apr 1999
time: 05:13
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RollerCoster Tycoon. My vote for best value game of the year 1999.
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:13
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quote:
* Hotkeys: you can assign a 'squad number'(1-9) to units and factories, with no limits on unit types or group size.
Same with starcraft
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I thought that Starcraft had a twelve unit limit to any group, and that the designers did this because they felt it made the game more realistic...can you confirm or deny?
quote:
* Enhanced Patrol: You can program factories with complex, repating patrol routes, that the units automatically
follow as soon as they are made.
Not neccessary since starcraft is a faster game
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TA can be as fast or slow as you like, but even in the fast games, I like the fact that my troops aren't going to just park themselves in front of the lab because I got distracted on the other side of the battlefield...
quote:
* 500 unit limit: Apparently SC has a 200 unit limit
...which is never reached in a normal game. But still, if you really wanted to you could have 200 of each race,
giving you a 600 limit.
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The 500 unit limit is per army, whether player or AI; this means that with all ten on the field, there can be FIVE THOUSAND units in play at once...
quote:
* 'Alliance Symbols': You can have up to ten players in TA (up to nine AIs), that can be set as two massive alliances, ten armies out for themselves, or anywhere in between. Oh yeah--500 units apiece
8 people playing is enough for me, a 4v4 game lags the hell out of my slow modem.
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You don't have to play with that many, it's just that the potential is there for those who can--or are you saying that the potential should not be there?
quote:
* Map size: I know this was hit in the quoted post, but I would like to add to it. Original TA has a maximum map
size of 40*40; thats in 640*480 screens. 8*8 is considered 'small'; 3rd party designers have pushed the limit to
63*63, and are hinting that larger is possible. In addition, the maps, are considered to be 20% larger with regard to
aircraft, so they don't have to stop short at the edge of the map.
With starcraft you can do this as well. A 64*64 game is small, 256*256 is big. for wierdness, you could even make
a 64*256 or some such.
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Actually this is a problem with discussing things like map size in this format; you can't be certain if you're comparing apple with apples. Are you saying 64 screens? If so, how large is a unit on the screen? In TA, at the resolution I'm describing, you could probably fit thirty of the smallest units from top to bottom, or five of the largest (those being factories). Can aircraft fly off the edge of the map in Starcraft? You weren't clear on this.
Oh yeah, there are 3*3 maps in TA, there are 4*64 maps in TA, whatever you want...
quote:
* Naval Units: TA has them, complete with subs, amphibious unit, hovercraft, sonar, torpedos, and depth charges.
Units that are underwater are invisible unless you have an underwater unit nearby. Did I mention torpedo bombers?
http://www.aqueousrift.com
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Okay, I looked the site over...why did it take so long to develop this? TA had it all along...BTW, nice unit pics, but I didn't see a way to download them...
quote:
* Unit Types: Original TA has room for roughly 230 different units. I forget how many units are included, but I think
it's around 130. 3rd party designers filled in the rest pretty quickly, and figured out a way to squeeze in another
twelve...
If starcraft had that many units then games wouldn't be based on speed and micromanagement, its a whole
different type.
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Again, it's all a matter of how you want to play the game. Don't like ships? Use a lava world map. Want nothing but ships? Use a waterworld map. Want 100% airwar? Use a 'slateworld' map. Don't like a certain unit? All units have their own folders--just pull the ones you don't like, the AI won't miss 'em. Fast or slow, micromange or no, TA has all the bases covered.
quote:
* Unit Selection Options: there are hot keys to select all units, all armed units, all aircraft, all armed aircraft, all
construction vehicles, etc.
hotkeys for everything, spells, attacks, you name it.
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All units? Not just twelve?
quote:
Don't compare TA with a game thats not based with the same kind of strategy and say its better, look at the
people playing it. Starcraft/Brood War has been out for 2 years now, and at any given moment there are 40,000
people playing them online. Weekends can get 60,000+
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TA can be based on the same kind of strategy, or not; it's flexible that way. TA has been out longer than Starcraft, from a smaller company with less media, and without an ealier game to give it a jumpstart. Starcraft is, for all practical purposes, a sequal (not that that's a bad thing--I love Civ II, and that's a sequal), so at least part of its popularity is based on the previous fanbase.
This is a 'Comparison' forum--why shouldn't I compare?
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02-04-2000 12:30
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