13-11-2004 18:39									#301
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Or do you think Bush's international popularity is comparable with Clinton's?

I certainly hope not, Bush has put America's interests ahead of the interests of other nations while Clinton did the exact opposite.

	13-11-2004 23:51									#302
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist National debt at 37% of GNP? Tsk. Newbs.

The National Debt at over 37 % of GNP is bad new and is why the Euro has more value than the dollar right now. China is remove the peg with the dollar to than basket of Asian currently and the Euro. The interest we pay on borrow money will go up as our percent of debt to GNP go up.

	14-11-2004 01:25									#303
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff The National Debt at over 37 % of GNP is bad new and is why the Euro has more value than the dollar right now.

The EU 15 had an average national debt of about 64% of GDP in 2002. Belgium and Italy had over 100%, has had Japan. The raw relative national debt is not your problem.

	14-11-2004 02:49									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor In the rest of the world the hatred for Clinton wasn't mainstream, except in the places against which he directly went to war (Serbia for example). Today, the hatred for Bush is an ordinary perk of all mainstream left parties (even in the US), and a great many right-wingers also hate Bush. In non-American political landscapes, the hatred for Bush is mainstream. The hatred for Clintonwasn't. Or do you think Bush's international popularity is comparable with Clinton's?

Spiffor, name me a time when a Republican president was not hated by the left?

	14-11-2004 02:55									#305
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I can't speak for the left, but Reagan was not hated by the right, quite the contrary. Bush is to some extent.

And if you look at Reagans actions, he was a terrorist appeaser. He left Lebanon.

	14-11-2004 14:43									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I can't speak for the left, but Reagan was not hated by the right, quite the contrary. Bush is to some extent. And if you look at Reagans actions, he was a terrorist appeaser. He left Lebanon.

In a way yes and in a way no. He accomplished his mission, protect the PLO, then left. Unfortunately, while the US forces were there, they began to intervene in the civil war, which was not the reason they were there in the first place. That is why the Marines were attacked. The major problem with Lebanon was mission creep.

	14-11-2004 14:45									#307
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Clinton did the same thing in Mogadishu and has the same thing happen to him.

All this goes to show is that peacekeeping missions are extremely high risk.

	14-11-2004 14:52									#308
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I certainly hope not, Bush has put America's interests ahead of the interests of other nations while Clinton did the exact opposite.

The results say otherwise. Clinton put America's interests first but was polite about how he did it. I don't know how anyone can say Bush put's the country's interest first when he runs up a $500 billion per year deficit. That's the biggest deficit in the history of the world and it is like a lead anchor weighting down the future of our people. Sadly, less then 20% of that is war costs and the other 80% comes from tax cuts (51% of which have gone to the top 1% of the population; what about the other 99% of Americans?), increased farm & business subsidies (that's not very free market), or for new entilement spending. Any way you look at this Bush has been wreckless with out country's future.

	14-11-2004 14:57									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist The EU 15 had an average national debt of about 64% of GDP in 2002. Belgium and Italy had over 100%, has had Japan. The raw relative national debt is not your problem.

I disagree. sure, other nations have been more profilegate but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do better. Every penny we borrow has a certain amount of interest which must be paid back. This interest is almost always higher then the rate of inflation plus the growth rate for the national economy. That means the national debt is eatting away at America's future and we are dumping huge debts onto our children.

A better solution is to not charge up huge credit card bills now and to live with in our means. By doing this we will have more money to spend on our national programs without raising taxes plus our children won't have to find a way to dig us out of the fiscal train wreck we put the nation into.

	14-11-2004 16:18									#310
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Oerdin, I think the critical factor is not whether we pay real interest on the debt, but whether the debt is growing or shrinking as a percentage of GDP.

	14-11-2004 16:26									#311
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@Oerdin: CBH claimed that the American national debt was the reason the dollar fell against the euro - that the euro countries have much higher (relative) national debts prety much kills that idea, I should think.

But that's not to say that the American debt isn't bad. As Ned says, the fact it's growing is problematic. It's growing in some of the euro countries too, but, IIUC, nowhere as quickly.

	15-11-2004 09:49									#312
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff Russia will give that Muslim Republic full interindent from Russia as the Russia army mortal is total destory while the Muslim Freedom Fight mortal is good. 80,000 Russia troop in that republe donot have the mortal to carry out than attack on anyone. They where not pay for the last couple month(like 2 years), far away from home, fighting than war they donot believe in draft against their will. Draft evadeing is on the raise in Russia. Plus their outnumber the Freedom fight 10 to1, plus have heavy weapon, tanks, and planes and yet they are beaten men.

Oh no, not this crap again.


If Russians are beaten men in Chechnya, then who the hell Americans in Iraq? Complete suckers?
In Chechnya there is no such warfare like in Iraq. Insurgents there can't take any city or even small village under their control. Just can't. Their more or less capable formations were absolutely f*cked years ago. And survived several hundreds of mofos hidding their asses in mountains. And still you whine that Russians are beaten.
Thousands of combantants control Faluja or Mosul in Iraq for months and nobody shout about beaten Americans.

	15-11-2004 11:07									#313
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quote: I don't know how anyone can say Bush put's the country's interest first when he runs up a $500 billion per year deficit.

When precisely did the US run up a $500 billion per year deficit? Didn't we just get through establishing that the highest was $413 billion, as the federal government counts things?

More histrionics from the Dems.

	15-11-2004 11:14									#314
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Wow! Only 2/5 of a billions, instead of 1/2!

I'm so proud

	15-11-2004 11:38									#315
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So have we all agreed that the Guardian is a worthless rag yet?

	15-11-2004 11:41									#316
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No. They have considerable entertainment value.

	15-11-2004 12:03									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oerdin, I think the critical factor is not whether we pay real interest on the debt, but whether the debt is growing or shrinking as a percentage of GDP.

Ned, I will agree that it is better if the debt is decreasing as a percent of GDP and I agree there are other countries who have acted fiscally more irresponsibly then the USA has, however, I truly believe in balanced budgets. I truly believe that it is better for the future of our country if the government is run like a business and lives with in its means. What type of business can post losses like Bush has and not fire its CEO? What business could run loss after loss and not take corrective action without being decimated by the market?

I may be a social progressive but I remain a finical conservative who thinks our country shouldn't dump huge debts upon our children. Ned, you are married and most likely have children. Do you believe they should be stuck paying our bills or do you think we should be disciplined enough to pay our own way? I don't care if we cut government spending or raise taxes but to run up debt is horrible. I work hard to avoid debt because it is good economic management for me personally and I expect my elected politicians to also excursive good economic management over the public finances.

	15-11-2004 12:30									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Once upon a time. But Chirac and his people were on the take from Saddam big time. There is also no question that France supports the fascist Arabs and opposes the democratic Arabs.

Can you identify the fascist arabs and democratic arabs. I don't think I've familiar with either group.

	15-11-2004 12:30									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Oh no, not this crap again. If Russians are beaten men in Chechnya, then who the hell Americans in Iraq? Complete suckers? In Chechnya there is no such warfare like in Iraq. Insurgents there can't take any city or even small village under their control. Just can't. Their more or less capable formations were absolutely f*cked years ago. And survived several hundreds of mofos hidding their asses in mountains. And still you whine that Russians are beaten. Thousands of combantants control Faluja or Mosul in Iraq for months and nobody shout about beaten Americans.

America morale is in Iraq is low also. The election willnot have international or national legalrateion. First the America army7 is acting like the Germany Gestapo illegality arresting than Imnan for urgeding Iraqi force to
not fight with the america occup force. They are also use illegal Gestapo like tactic to terrorer the Muslim Clerics Association that is urgeding sunni muslim to not vote in the phoney election.

Good moral is inportant to any military units. The Freedom Fighter in the Russia Republic are rebuilting they strenght and are attacking Russian unit and winning. The Afghanistan War is going badly for America as the Tabian is wageing than effective rural inssugent war against America.

The reason I only talk about Russia is that person only talking about Russia military force.

	15-11-2004 12:48									#320
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I may be a social progressive but I remain a finical conservative who thinks our country shouldn't dump huge debts upon our children.

I'm finding myself wondering are you one of those people who voted for that write-in candiate in San Diego? Cannot recall her name right now but I am sure you know who I am referring to.

	15-11-2004 13:15									#321
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edited

Last edited by Serb on 15-11-2004 at 16:28

	15-11-2004 14:21									#322
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edited

Last edited by Serb on 15-11-2004 at 16:29

	15-11-2004 16:19									#323
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Serb:
It's bad to attack CBH on his diability. He has a speech impairement, which is why his posts look like that.
There are many things youcan counter in this post, so I think you shouldn't swwep as low as attacking his impairement. You certainly don't have to, in order to win a debate against him

	15-11-2004 16:30									#324
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I'm terribly sorry. I didn't know.

	15-11-2004 16:36									#325
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I certainly hope not, Bush has put America's interests ahead of the interests of other nations while Clinton did the exact opposite.

I disagree.

Clinton was the president that took care of the Pax Americana in a very succeessful way. Never had the US as much international weight than under Clinton. His only failure at maintaining the New World Order was the failure of North Korea. Apart from that, all significant countries played by American rules, and the ones that didn't play by the rules were kept in insignificance (like Iraq or Sudan).

The US was as much self-serving under Clinton than under Bush. The difference is that Clinton knew when to give lip service to the other countries and foreign public opinions, which was a much less costly means to get support than Bush's bullying.

Bush's foreign policy is motivated by the unability to understand one thing: a short-term cost can bring a real long-term gain. Had he worked to have France and Germany on his side in Iraq (with giving them some concessions), he would now have two extra allies comparably powerful to Briatain (unlike Denmark or the Netherlands) to do the peacekeeping with. Much less money and much fewer American lives would have been spent then.

Clinton was a master of lip-service and slight concessions. With his course of action, America's power reached an all-time height. Bush's shortsighted diplomacy has the only consequence that America's power tanks.

Edit: great avatar btw

	15-11-2004 16:37									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I'm terribly sorry. I didn't know.

No problem, many people don't know

Now don't hesitate and be harsh against his arguments!

	15-11-2004 16:40									#327
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--"Clinton was a master of lip-service and slight concessions. With his course of action, America's power reached an all-time height. Bush's shortsighted diplomacy has the only consequence that America's power tanks."

I always said that Clinton=Bush+Good PR advice

	15-11-2004 16:54									#328
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten How could you hate Clinton? He never did anything (other than employees)...

Kosovo war. Bombing Iraq, and generally bullying it. Successfully maintained the New World Order, i.e. prevented new blocs to even attempt to emerge.

Clinton initiated at least one illegal war, just like Bush. How come the opposition to the Kosovo war wasn't mainstream, while the opposition to the war in Iraq was?

	15-11-2004 16:56									#329
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quote: How come the opposition to the Kosovo war wasn't mainstream, while the opposition to the war in Iraq was?

Because ya'll asked us to do the first? It's fine for America to flex its muscle as long as Euros are the ones benefitting from it...

	15-11-2004 17:40									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ned, I will agree that it is better if the debt is decreasing as a percent of GDP and I agree there are other countries who have acted fiscally more irresponsibly then the USA has, however, I truly believe in balanced budgets. I truly believe that it is better for the future of our country if the government is run like a business and lives with in its means. What type of business can post losses like Bush has and not fire its CEO? What business could run loss after loss and not take corrective action without being decimated by the market? I may be a social progressive but I remain a finical conservative who thinks our country shouldn't dump huge debts upon our children. Ned, you are married and most likely have children. Do you believe they should be stuck paying our bills or do you think we should be disciplined enough to pay our own way? I don't care if we cut government spending or raise taxes but to run up debt is horrible. I work hard to avoid debt because it is good economic management for me personally and I expect my elected politicians to also excursive good economic management over the public finances.

Oerdin, you are completely ignoring the economic effects of spending. Spending is like fuel to an engine. The more fuel, the faster the car goes.

The problem with borrowing the money to spend is that the borrowed money adds to to the money supply (debt = money). If too much money chases too few goods, we get inflation. So the trick is to balance economic growth and money supply expansion so as to minimize inflation.

As to me personally, let me tell you that debt is essential. For example, I borrowed money to buy the house I'm in. I still owe more than half that money to the bank. But, at the same time, my house has more than doubled in value. Now, if I die tomorrow, my kid gets a house in Kalifornia with a debt about 1/5th of its value.

Investing in the economy operates in the same way.