10-11-2004 06:14									#31
	Remove this text

Aggie, you're getting it wrong. France should stay in NATO and support American intervention everywhere, because it is actually America that has protected them from... wait, their own communist partisans in '45!

	10-11-2004 06:16									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Gangerolf: Oh please, thats just because EU doesnt have a common defence yet. Once it has Nato will be gone.

	10-11-2004 06:16									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Who really wants war these days apart from the Americans, a few disgruntled African leaders and Al Qaeda?

Even the Indians and Pakistanis seem to be giving peace a chance.

	10-11-2004 06:17									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Gangerolf: Oh please, thats just because EU doesnt have a common defence yet. Once it has Nato will be gone.

They should persuade the Swiss to drop the neutrality thing. Those knives of theirs can be deadly. I certainly wouldn't want to have a "thing for getting stones out of horses' hooves" pointed at me.

	10-11-2004 06:34									#35
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/a...1304572,00.html

quote: The fear here is that the soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division will return from Iraq merely to pack up and go back to Kansas, leaving behind a lot of local unemployment, a collapsed property market, a hole in the regional economy and increased transatlantic estrangement between the two countries.

quote: The Americans invest about €40m (£27m) in the region every year, and spend much more. The Verdi trade union believes the pullout will cost 80,000 German jobs in a country with stubbornly high unemployment of 4.5 million.

quote: "Some think it's a punishment for us for being against the Iraq war," said Mr Kruse. "But most think it's just America restructuring its forces. You can't ask the Americans to stay forever. They've done their job."

So if America starts pulling out of Europe then some see it as "punishment" and if we stay then some want us to leave.

Why don't you hold a vote and get back to us.

	10-11-2004 06:48									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

@Tripledoc: The Nordic Defense Union was the brianchild of a number of leading politicians and generals back in the day. It was based on pretty much the same ideas as staying out of NATO - it wouldn't provoke the Soviets as much, and by staying of of the great power blocs maintain the neutrality that might let us stay out of any major war. Had it been intended to simply replace NATO membership, the reasonable option had been joining the NATO when it failed.

Ambivalence towards "big brother" Sweden may certainly have played a part in Denmark and Norway's rejection of Union, but more important was they felt it could not provide the necessary degree of security. That independence was not a primary concern should be obvious from the fact they joined NATO, which was (and is) dominated by the US to an extent Sweden could never have dominated a Nordic Defense Union.

Again, Sweden opted out of NATO because it was felt, rightly or wrongly, that this minimized risk.

	10-11-2004 06:49									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

@Muad'Dib: The reason we want your troops to remain is they spend alot of money here.

	10-11-2004 07:05									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The nato alliance, and our continued troop presence in Europe is not worth while any longer. Demographics shifts are eventually going to force us out of Europe no matter what, we might as well get out now.

	10-11-2004 07:16									#39
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The main reason why NATO/US is still welcome in most places is that it saves European countries a lot of money. Having somebody else foot the bill for a part of your defense is a great deal that's worth a lot of humble pie.

Europe would have to increase spending substantially to have a viable integrated EU force. Europe might have to increase spending somewhat in any event, as the US draws down its forces.

	10-11-2004 07:33									#40
	Tired of ads?

NATO must die.

	10-11-2004 07:45									#41
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Gist of the Article

The language it was clothed in

	10-11-2004 07:49									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DanS The main reason why NATO/US is still welcome in most places is that it saves European countries a lot of money. Having somebody else foot the bill for a part of your defense is a great deal that's worth a lot of humble pie. Europe would have to increase spending substantially to have a viable integrated EU force. Europe might have to increase spending somewhat in any event, as the US draws down its forces.

You make a valid point DanS.

	10-11-2004 07:49									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

One can hope that Europe will not breed the same type of extremists and expansionists that it has in the past. The US is in Europe to protect you from each other...and therefore keep us from having to bail you out yet again.

If we go home, don't call us next time your cities are burning.

	10-11-2004 07:53									#44
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by laurentius We survived without ANY allies back in the 1939-1944

Nazi Germany?

	10-11-2004 08:01									#45
	Tired of ads?

In accordance with recent version of history they weren't allies.

	10-11-2004 08:03									#46
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant Gist of the Article The language it was clothed in

I have to agree on both points. The writer seems to have a serious malfunction on some basic facts, but it would be very good if the EU could get its defence house in order.

	10-11-2004 08:04									#47
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Serb In accordance with recent version of history they weren't allies.

	10-11-2004 08:05									#48
	Got spare money?

What exactly are these European values that the article mentions?

	10-11-2004 08:31									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

Freedom of speech, freedom of faith, free and honest elections and anti-Americanism of course.

	10-11-2004 08:42									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You mean freedom from faith, don't you?

When you said 'honest elections' you were really trying to pull our legs, weren't you?

	10-11-2004 09:06									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Serb Freedom of speech, freedom of faith

Well, those seem to be universal. Freedom of Faith? How's that anti-Muslim and Anti Semite movement going in France?

	10-11-2004 09:10									#52
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You mean freedom from faith, don't you? When you said 'honest elections' you were really trying to pull our legs, weren't you?

No objections about anti-Americanism being one of the European values?

	10-11-2004 09:15									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Well, those seem to be universal. Freedom of Faith? How's that anti-Muslim and Anti Semite movement going in France?

Well, this is a freedom of Faith. They have both anti-Semite and anti-Muislim movements. Looks like pretty free and advanced society.

	10-11-2004 09:21									#54
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Serb No objections about anti-Americanism being one of the European values?

That's a given. Honestly. No smilie required. The longer we go past the fall of the SU, the more there will be desire to create a counterweight to American power.

Horror vacui. Both nature and humans abhor a vacuum. The trick is going to be managing the next 50 years as the Soviet system is replaced without blowing the world up. It would be a big bonus if that power and the US could live more peacefully.

	10-11-2004 09:34									#55
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I concur with your reasoning NYE.

In the past, the U.S. had the U.S.S.R. as a counterbalance to world power - both known as "Superpower" nations.

Now that the U.S.S.R. is no more, the U.S. has moved from a "Superpower" nation to that of a "Hyperpower" nation (or that of one who has supreme superpower over all others)....and this is making the rest of the world nervous since there is currently no counter-balance to the U.S.'s influence and no other nation to effectively counter any global actions the U.S. decides to take.

I guess time will tell....

	10-11-2004 09:51									#56
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Now that the U.S.S.R. is no more, the U.S. has moved from a "Superpower" nation to that of a "Hyperpower" nation (or that of one who has supreme superpower over all others)....and this is making the rest of the world nervous since there is currently no counter-balance to the U.S.'s influence and no other nation to effectively counter any global actions the U.S. decides to take.

But only the loony left (i.e. me, Chegitz and the other "usual suspects") really cared about US crimes under Clinton. But now Bush hating is a mainstream thing outside of the US, and has even spread to many avowed conservatives.

All my students hate Bush, all my fellow grads hate Bush (the Americans more than everyone else - one of them used the term "mother*******" the other day, which is the first oath I've ever heard from her), everyone else on campus seems to hate Bush, my thesis reader hates Bush, my arch conservative supervisor hates Bush, the lady at Tim Horton's where I buy a coffee and a donut hates Bush.

Everyone hates him, but not all of these people hate America.

	10-11-2004 10:01									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Pfft. You over-exagerate the number of Canadians who hate Bush, and you underplay the link between hating Bush and being inclined to be anti-American.

	10-11-2004 10:05									#58
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Pfft. You over-exagerate the number of Canadians who hate Bush, and you underplay the link between hating Bush and being inclined to be anti-American.

I've met precisely two people who liked him, both were Jewish and thought he was good for Israel.

I suppose lots of people like him in Alberta, but the cold there has obviously warped your minds.

	10-11-2004 10:09									#59
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Well, those seem to be universal. Freedom of Faith? How's that anti-Muslim and Anti Semite movement going in France?

What about the anti-atheist movement in America?

(I'm on his ignore anyway, I'm doing that for the principle of it...)

	10-11-2004 10:11									#60
	Got spare money?

I can't remember the last time I was on ignore.

The problem with ignore, is that it is hard to ignore someone who annoys the hell out of you, and you can't put the mods on ignore.