10-11-2004 10:12									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The main reason why NATO/US is still welcome in most places is that it saves European countries a lot of money. Having somebody else foot the bill for a part of your defense is a great deal that's worth a lot of humble pie. Europe would have to increase spending substantially to have a viable integrated EU force. Europe might have to increase spending somewhat in any event, as the US draws down its forces.

Actually, the armies of most European countries are mainly overkill now that Russia isn't a threat. Europe doesn't need those 140,000 soldiers to "defend" itself against non-existent foes.

	10-11-2004 10:29									#62
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Agathon - I often found it didn't help my grade any to share an opposing political/ethical viewpoint of any teacher/professor.

	10-11-2004 10:30									#63
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But back OT.

People always think they need an army, but who really does these days. Apart from contributions to UN peacekeeping and harassing Korean fishermen, New Zealand doesn't need a military.

Who wants to invade Britain for example? Who has any reason to do so?

	10-11-2004 10:34									#64
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quote: Agathon - I often found it didn't help my grade any to share an opposing political/ethical viewpoint of any teacher/professor.

Then you didn't have me as your teacher. I never give people bad marks for being right wing - that's just not fair. I always think that a teacher should refrain from telling the students his politics unless asked. Some of mine might suspect that I am a social democrat, but none know the truth. I recently came across an ex-student of mine who now sells communist T-Shirts and he was as surprised as I was to discover our mutual redness.

I don't really talk politics with my supervisor though, we mainly talk about work (that I ought to be doing). He did surprise me by saying how much he hated Bush.

	10-11-2004 10:40									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I've met precisely two people who liked him, both were Jewish and thought he was good for Israel. I suppose lots of people like him in Alberta, but the cold there has obviously warped your minds.

Considering recent events and press, would you be surprised that 30% of Canadians were willing to own up to a favourable opinion of Bush personally, and that 51% of Canadians think that now they're in, they should stay stuck into Iraq?

btw, that's three to five times the entire population of Alberta.

	10-11-2004 10:44									#66
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Considering recent events and press, would you be surprised that 30% of Canadians were willing to own up to a favourable opinion of Bush personally, and that 51% of Canadians think that now they're in, they should stay stuck into Iraq? btw, that's three to five times the entire population of Alberta.

Must be the "others" then.

	10-11-2004 10:51									#67
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Guys, back to topic- bash NATO.

	10-11-2004 10:54									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Agathon - I often found it didn't help my grade any to share an opposing political/ethical viewpoint of any teacher/professor. Then you didn't have me as your teacher. I never give people bad marks for being right wing - that's just not fair. I always think that a teacher should refrain from telling the students his politics unless asked. Some of mine might suspect that I am a social democrat, but none know the truth. I recently came across an ex-student of mine who now sells communist T-Shirts and he was as surprised as I was to discover our mutual redness.

I agree, but from the new student's perspective he/she doesn't know which teachers will be (un)consciously fair. There is word-of-mouth, but that requires finding a couple prior students from that teacher for a good assessment - which isn't easy for all students.

Disagree / No bias = Good
Agree / No bias = Good
Agree / Bias = (Very) Good
Disagree / Bias = (Very) Bad

Eventually, I found it just easier and safer to be a good listener and tactful inquisitor to find areas to agree on rather than risk being "wrong".

	10-11-2004 10:56									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew Agathon - I often found it didn't help my grade any to share an opposing political/ethical viewpoint of any teacher/professor.

I often found that when people say this, it was a convenient excuse for sh!t work.

	10-11-2004 10:59									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I often found that when people say this, it was a convenient excuse for sh!t work.

For one teacher I could do sh!t work since he liked me so much... it appeared that way anyways.

But perhaps you're right... all teachers have no bias and are completely fair.

Teachers

	10-11-2004 11:03									#71
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Paranoia

	10-11-2004 11:05									#72
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quote: I often found that when people say this, it was a convenient excuse for sh!t work.

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Paranoia

Paranoia

	10-11-2004 11:08									#73
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Bunch of armed paranoids (aka NATO)

	10-11-2004 11:16									#74
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Why then are you so concerned about a defensive alliance, Serb?

	10-11-2004 11:34									#75
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Considering recent events and press, would you be surprised that 30% of Canadians were willing to own up to a favourable opinion of Bush personally, and that 51% of Canadians think that now they're in, they should stay stuck into Iraq?

Hello? If thinking that the Americans should stay in Iraq is pro-Bush or pro-America, I am it.

Wrt to Finland, they actually did insist they did not have an alliance with Germany, but were merely "co-belligerents" against the SU. Now, this did not do alot of difference in practice, but anyway.

	10-11-2004 11:43									#76
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Hello, I was addressing someone who thinks that both Bush is the Anti-Christ, and that the US should pull out of Iraq as fast as possible.

	10-11-2004 12:50									#77
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Threat? No
Obsolete? Probably

	10-11-2004 13:22									#78
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quote: So if America starts pulling out of Europe then some see it as "punishment" and if we stay then some want us to leave.

HOLY CRAP, EUROPEANS HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS

	10-11-2004 13:31									#79
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The primary function of NATO now is to maintain an established institutional link between both sides of the Atlantic. Actually, NATO is the only substantial and meaningful institutional link between them.

NATO's successful past created an invaluable habit of consultation and coordination, which maintains a modicum of trust based on half a century of allied interaction. As such, even in bitter disagreements like Iraq, the NATO framework gives everybody a stake not to throw away the final link with the other side (if I may call it that) in favour of an unpredictable vacuum (made further bitter by the collapse of NATO).

Besides, NATO is the storehouse of operational guidelines for coordinating the armies of so many countries. NATO also created long-established and successful common standards of all kinds of weapons of its members to create meaningful interoperability. Over time, as different standards start to prevail between Europe and US, ditching NATO would destroy any future chance of common military operations by Europe and US.

Again, it's due to the existence of NATO that the bitter disagreements of our times don't assume dangerous proportions in the long run.

And what about this cherished "European Security Identity"? Europe itself cannot agree on what kind of a future it wants to have, it's only natural that they can't clarify what a "common European defence" means.

	10-11-2004 13:31									#80
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why then are you so concerned about a defensive alliance, Serb?

Defensive?
You must be kidding me.
NATO attacked Yugoslavia in 1999, thus violated not only its own charter, its so-called defensive nature, but UN charter as well. Now NATO surrounds Russia with its bases and considering that Russia always was the main (if not the only) enemy for NATO, Russians have pretty good reasons to be concerned.

NATO must die peacefully, like Warsaw Pact died, otherwise one day it will be slain.

	10-11-2004 13:36									#81
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NATO
Pissing off Rusia
Serb

	10-11-2004 14:24									#82
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NATO
Pissing off America
Serb

	10-11-2004 14:35									#83
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Sir Ralph

	10-11-2004 14:35									#84
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Thanks.

Btw Saras, Rossiya pishetsya s dvumya "S", dazhe v angliiskom yazyke.

Anekdot pro Russkii yazyk:
Odin Amerikanec prozhil v Rossii 10 let i tak i ne smog ponyat' pochemu "huevo"- eto ploho, a "pizdato"- eto horosho, i pochemu "ohuitel'no"- vsegda luchshe chem "pizdato", a "pizdec" vsegda huzhe chem "huevo".

Vot takoi vot blya yazyk, a vy govorite NATO, NATO...

	10-11-2004 14:41									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Anekdot pro Russkii yazyk: Odin Amerikanec prozhil v Rossii 10 let i tak i ne smog ponyat' pochemu "huevo"- eto ploho, a "pizdato"- eto horosho, i pochemu "ohuitel'no"- vsegda luchshe chem "pizdato", a "pizdec" vsegda huzhe chem "huevo".

Znajem znajem. Slush, u vas tam v Omske Ikea otkryvaetsia slyshal?

	10-11-2004 14:43									#86
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Pfft. You over-exagerate the number of Canadians who hate Bush, and you underplay the link between hating Bush and being inclined to be anti-American.

I hate most of what Bush has done but wouldn't consider myself anti-American. If anything Bush is the anti-American one. Idon't think Bush stands for very much of the great stuff that America traditionally stands for. Especially with regards to tolerance, diversity, individual freedom, mobility between classes etc. All the stuff that America seems to be losing but that made it a place to look up to.

	10-11-2004 14:46									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Znajem znajem. Slush, u vas tam v Omske Ikea otkryvaetsia slyshal?

OMFG Sweden invades Siberia

	10-11-2004 14:49									#88
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Go Sweden, Go!

	10-11-2004 14:50									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Thanks. Btw Saras, Rossiya pishetsya s dvumya "S", dazhe v angliiskom yazyke. Anekdot pro Russkii yazyk: Odin Amerikanec prozhil v Rossii 10 let i tak i ne smog ponyat' pochemu "huevo"- eto ploho, a "pizdato"- eto horosho, i pochemu "ohuitel'no"- vsegda luchshe chem "pizdato", a "pizdec" vsegda huzhe chem "huevo". Vot takoi vot blya yazyk, a vy govorite NATO, NATO...

Rasskazat' etot anekdot zhene ili net... dumayu luchshe net!

	10-11-2004 14:52									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph OMFG Sweden invades Siberia

"Liberates from Muscovy occupation" is the word