11-11-2004 03:03									#1
	Mind Worm Capture Tactics Full PM-box? Change here!

I think I understand the SE impact on the probability of capturing mind worms, but is there anything I can do in a tactical sense to increase the probability of capture vs combat?

For example, consider a case where my faction mind worm and a wild worm are both in a patch of fungus. My son is convinced that if there is a tile between the worms and I pass through the empty one first and then attempt a capture in the same turn, then combat (failed capture) will almost always result. However, if I start my turn next to the wild worm, I have a better chance of actually capturing it.

So.. is this analysis correct? And from other experiences I would ask: Does the presence of other units in the vicinity (surrounding the wild worm with zones of control) have any positive effect? Does morale affect capture probability? Terrain? Ect?

Thanks.

	11-11-2004 03:10									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

nothing except planet rating,as far as i know.the first native unit encountered is always captured if you have a positive planet rating.

and i would say offhand your son is wrong,he just had a lucky RNG

	11-11-2004 04:59									#3
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A few things:

1. When programming a random number generation (to deterime if you capture a worm for example), you use what is called a seed value. This seed is typically based on something that constantly changes (such as your computers clock), but in SMAC, the seed is saved and is constant for each turn. That way you can't just keep reloading until that pod pops what you want it to or keep reloading until you capture a mindworm. Your son could have noticed this trend he mentions simply when reloading over and over again.

Edit: I later discovered the seed is saved only if you have Iron Man turned on

2. Here is a good tactic using worms to capture worms.
A wild worm typically wont attack a tame worm. So if it goes to a odds screen, leave it alone. End the turn, then try again, lather, rinse, repeat.

3. If you pop a pod and get surrounded by worms, try to capture one. If it goes to a odds screen, cancel and try the next worm in the loop, lather, rinse, repeat. Often once you have captured a worm the other (still wild) worms will leave you alone, so you can end the turn and continue to capture more worms.

Last edited by livid imp on 19-11-2004 at 05:49

	11-11-2004 07:09									#4
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what versian are you playing??you can reload to get anything you want.i have done it with pods,battles,probes...anything that uses RNG

	11-11-2004 12:48									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

If I'm not mistaken, the capturing unit must have at least one whole movement point left in order to even stand a chance of capturing. If they have 2/3 or 1/3 movement points left due to roads and things, they will always fight.

	11-11-2004 14:01									#6
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quote: If I'm not mistaken, the capturing unit must have at least one whole movement point left in order to even stand a chance of capturing. If they have 2/3 or 1/3 movement points left due to roads and things, they will always fight.

You've mistaken.

Try getting a capture situation with your unit 2/3 moves away from worm, reload it 20 times and write down the statistics, then try the same with distance of 0 moves.

Error wont exceed 10%.

	11-11-2004 22:55									#7
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Cataphract887 what versian are you playing??you can reload to get anything you want.i have done it with pods,battles,probes...anything that uses RNG

And you had different results? Well than appearently I have the "Static Seed" verison.

You keep referencing "RNG" so I am going to assume you do a little programming. Just so we are on the same page, you do understand that a computer is completely incapable of generating random number by itself and that is why a seed is needed, right? Is there any arguement to what i have stated here? I'm no major programmer, i am a dabbler at best I am afraid to admit. So if I am missing some part of the equation, please fill me in.

I have noticed if you change up the order of movements, or use the autosave vs. a manual save you will get a different outcome, but all of those things can effect the seed value. I am still unsure as to what the value is based on, but I speculate it is based on the save game binary data.

In my current game, SMAC keeps crashing when I end the turn. Everytime I have reloaded (4 times now ) and tried to redo the turn, every pod pops the same, every worm is captured the same. One of my big complaints about Civ2 was that you could simply reload a turn over and over until you won the battle you were fighting. I was very happy to note that SMAC does not use a dynamic seed (well maybe a semi-dynamic seed).

	11-11-2004 23:16									#8
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quote: Originally posted by WotanAnubis If I'm not mistaken, the capturing unit must have at least one whole movement point left in order to even stand a chance of capturing. If they have 2/3 or 1/3 movement points left due to roads and things, they will always fight.

Negative. I have definately captured at 1/3 moveleft. Now there might be a "hasty" penalty to capture making it less likely, but we wouldn't know since there is no odd screen to confirm this.

	12-11-2004 03:12									#9
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The planetary pack has random seed - if you dont like the content of a pod (fungus tower just outside your main base in round two or some kind of tech advance that destroys your research plans) just reload autosave and youll get something else.

Even result of mindworm attack differs.

	12-11-2004 05:08									#10
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat The planetary pack has random seed - if you dont like the content of a pod (fungus tower just outside your main base in round two or some kind of tech advance that destroys your research plans) just reload autosave and youll get something else. Even result of mindworm attack differs.

Yes, results will change from round to round. They can even change if you move your troops differently. But if you save right before popping a pod, then reload after each pop, you should get the same thing over and over again.

Hmmmm. It just occured to me that this come be different if you don't play with Iron Man on. That might be why we are all seeing different things. I always play with Iron Man on.

**sniff** **sniff** Do you smell that? It smells like a poll coming on!

	12-11-2004 09:49									#11
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livid imp, I've been playing this game ever since it was out and even though I don't have the planetary pack but seperate CDs for SMAC and SMAX, and despite the fact that in my whole experience I have often resorted to reloading in order to get what I want from a pod, I am positive that without moving any other unit in anyway you can get different results from a pod-pop.

I never remember in all these years having the same kind of frustration that you mention here by reloading many times over (from a given position without moving another unit) and getting the same result all the time.

	12-11-2004 14:41									#12
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I've experienced the static result from reload effect. Doing something else first and then retrying will give you another bite at the apple. Try it when your action is the last one of the turn, with "end of turn" on.

	12-11-2004 21:37									#13
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Sik, do you play with Iron Man on?

	12-11-2004 21:44									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean I am positive that without moving any other unit in anyway you can get different results from a pod-pop.

As you stated in the Iron Man poll you usually play with Iron Man off. It would make sense for you to get dynamic results from reloading.

I didn't get a chance to try Iron Man off last night to see if things change. I'll have to try to remember this weekend.

	13-11-2004 02:25									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have never captured a worm with partial move points left.

	14-11-2004 06:14									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

i have reloaded in both iron man and normal play (iron man just makes reload harder ) and got different results from probe teams and worms.no moves were made rihgt after loading-nothing else

i dont really programm,but talking from civ3 experiance,the game generates a number and if you have save RNG on,you will always get the same result.otherwise you can reload and get different results

	15-11-2004 15:21									#17
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by livid imp Sik, do you play with Iron Man on?

Nope.

	15-11-2004 15:48									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I have never captured a worm with partial move points left.

I do it every second time when I capture any.

	16-11-2004 21:54									#19
	Remove this text

Did some testing last night, and confirmed that the seed is saved if you are playing in Iron Man. So the outcome of random events will be the same every round no matter how many times a round is reloaded.
Conversely, if you play with Iron Man off, all events are re-randomized everytime you reload

	27-11-2004 09:10									#20
	Got spare money?

well,if you tested it i will set my belief that ironman can be reloaded aside....at least intil i test it myself,since i am curious(still have the .sav i remembered it on)

	02-12-2004 22:30									#21
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp A few things: 1. When programming a random number generation (to deterime if you capture a worm for example), you use what is called a seed value. This seed is typically based on something that constantly changes (such as your computers clock), but in SMAC, the seed is saved and is constant for each turn. That way you can't just keep reloading until that pod pops what you want it to or keep reloading until you capture a mindworm. Your son could have noticed this trend he mentions simply when reloading over and over again. Edit: I later discovered the seed is saved only if you have Iron Man turned on 2. Here is a good tactic using worms to capture worms. A wild worm typically wont attack a tame worm. So if it goes to a odds screen, leave it alone. End the turn, then try again, lather, rinse, repeat. 3. If you pop a pod and get surrounded by worms, try to capture one. If it goes to a odds screen, cancel and try the next worm in the loop, lather, rinse, repeat. Often once you have captured a worm the other (still wild) worms will leave you alone, so you can end the turn and continue to capture more worms.

Sorry, I don't understand "Odds screen"?

I have always been frustrated when playing as the Gaians. I have gotten a +4 Env rating or even +7 but I still kill all (90%) of the mind worms I try to capture.
It is very frustrating, I should be able to use non-lethal techniques.

Thank you

	02-12-2004 23:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Avimimus Sorry, I don't understand "Odds screen"?

When you go to attack and you get the pop screen showing your odds of winning. There is an option in the preferences that says "Show odds before attacking"....turn that on.

quote: Originally posted by Avimimus I have always been frustrated when playing as the Gaians. I have gotten a +4 Env rating or even +7 but I still kill all (90%) of the mind worms I try to capture. It is very frustrating, I should be able to use non-lethal techniques.

The max chance for capturing NL is (officially) 75% at a +3 Planet rating. Any Planet rating beyond that only helps with psi combat and eco damage. Now I say "officially" 75% because that is what it listsin the SE screen. In reality, it is no where near 75%. Start up a game, and write down every time you try to capture NL vs how many times you actually do. I definately don't capture 3 out of 4 MW I encounter. Thing is, if you did, you'd be very powerful, very fast. I have a feeling the 75% is a relic of a since changed design. I believe there is more the capture equation than we get to see. I guessimate the capture chance is closer to 15% per Planet rating (max +3).

	03-12-2004 05:04									#23
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Its actually pretty accurate at 25% per planet rating (max 75%) MINUS some number based on the number of captured mindworms you have already.

At +3 you will very likely capture an early mindworm but once you have an army of several, it gets less and less likely-- I don't think it ever gets to a zero percent chance but I have found once I have 10 natives, I almost never capture any more.

Since there is no capture odds chart, it is impossible to know the exact odds from just playing but anecdotally, 75% seems right at +3, it "seems" to be around 50% once I have a couple or 3 mindworms and it seems to be less than 10% capture chance once I have 9 or 10.

	03-12-2004 06:04									#24
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There's a curious glitch with capturing mindworms - if you attack a stack, and succeed on a capture check, you capture the whole stack, no matter how tall. I've grabbed a dozen at a time with this feature, though once I have the dozen, I can't capture anything else until they're gone.

	03-12-2004 07:31									#25
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Unless you have maxed out, it is a simple numbers game. Explore lots of fungus, with lots of units, especially near monoliths which attract them to a degree. Ruins are the best.

You seem to get better odds when attacking a worm with a non-native unit. With the 'fungus-as-roads' SP you can cover a lot of fungus with your elite rover.

I can confirm that you can capture with just a fraction of a movement point left.

	03-12-2004 09:20									#26
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IIRC, with the Xenoempathy dome, you no longer randomly find mind worms in fungus.

	03-12-2004 18:56									#27
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Thank you everyone! This explains a lot. I had an army of 15-20 mindworms at the time, most of which I had built. Does anyone have any idea where the maximum value of the army for the mindworm capture to work is?

It would be nice to see a late game improvement that would increase the effective size of the troops.
Or raise large numbers of mind worms but wipe out your economy permanently, a sort of going native event.

	03-12-2004 21:46									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory with the Xenoempathy dome, you no longer randomly find mind worms in fungus.

I see people saying a lot, but I definately have run into worms in the fungus after getting the XD, up to 1 or 2 per turn near the Ruins. It definately is much safer to travel in the fungus after the XD, but not fool proof.