15-11-2004 05:45									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman But societies don't follow the rules of evolution. Not only do they have now-useless social structures and customs, but they also have stuff which was NEVER useful. Like ballet. Or people who collect Barbie dolls. Or the belief that vitamin C cures colds.

Societies very much do follow the rules of evolution. How many slave or feudal societies do you see lying around? As for structures and customs which aren't useful, evolution is driven by traits which aren't useful (and aren't harmful) which become useful when the environment changes.

	15-11-2004 05:53									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious People believe that it's moral to kill other people is the right circumstance,

Jutifiable homocide isn't murder. Murder is unjustified homocide. No society has every said it's okay to kill someone because you simply want to do so. Societies which have stretched the limit as far as they could go, say, the Aztecs, who were sacrficing huge swathes of their subject peoples, soon become unstable and unable to withstand internal and external pressures. The Spanish pushed over a tottering empire. They didn't crush it with superior arms.

No society has ever said it's okay to steal on a whim. It might be okay to steal from certain groups, and it might be okay for certain people to steal, but no society ever made universal theft legal. Any society which did so would collapse in a universal feud.

Our morals are grounded in concrete reality, and not the ideas of some enlightened mind. They describe the relations we need as a social band to be able to survive and grow. That fact that our social bands now number in the hundreds of millions doesn't discredit or detract from the origins of our morals in small social kin-groups of 20-30 scavangers.

	15-11-2004 06:09									#93
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Societies have their own rules about killing and taking things. If you think that the rules are wrong then you call the acts murder and theft. To maintain power you have to make people either believe that your rules about killing and taking things are just or you punish the people who disagree with you.

Relations have more to do with power than justice.

	15-11-2004 06:13									#94
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Societies very much do follow the rules of evolution.

This has more to do with economics than morals, but different morals are needed to justify the different economic systems usually.

	15-11-2004 06:39									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Irrelevent. They are part of society. Just because society may have a morality that puts different constraints and obligations on different people (for example, men and women, or adults and children) doesn't mean that those people's morals are part of societies from the view of natural selection.

I don't understand what you are saying.

	15-11-2004 08:35									#96
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Who has more power to influence people's morals, a bum or the President?

	15-11-2004 08:58									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't understand what you are saying.

That whether the rulers are the ones enforcing or "creating" the morality has no bearing on my point and Che's.

	15-11-2004 09:08									#98
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We're suppose to disagree.

	15-11-2004 09:10									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Who has more power to influence people's morals, a bum or the President?

Both.

The President may enforce a morality, but has precious little power to compel the people to believe in a certain morality, or even to convince them.

In most cases, morality gets decided by society as a group, with no apparent attachement to any one person. Only in rare, exceptional cases does one person have a signficant effect, and these people are (rightly) viewed as great figures of history.

	15-11-2004 09:24									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Societies have their own rules about killing and taking things.

You're losing the forest for the trees. Has there ever been a society where it's okay to steal? Has there ever been a society where it's okay to murder? No in both cases. While a specific ruler here or there may have the right to take what he wants or kill whom he pleases, that's a detail. Even then he doesn't let his subjects go around committing murder or stealing willy-nilly. Why? Because regardless of the exceptions, people need to be safe and secure or society will (and did) collapse.

quote: To maintain power you have to make people either believe that your rules about killing and taking things are just or you punish the people who disagree with you.

Irrelevent. That has nothing to do with the origin of morals. It only has to do with who has the power to enforce them and provide exceptions to the morals. Without the basic moral code of humanity, society becomes dysfunctional and collapses. It doesn't matter who's ruling, except in that he won't be ruling very long.

	15-11-2004 09:27									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Both. The President may enforce a morality, but has precious little power to compel the people to believe in a certain morality, or even to convince them.

I see. All that campaigning and speeches for nothing.

quote: In most cases, morality gets decided by society as a group, with no apparent attachement to any one person. Only in rare, exceptional cases does one person have a signficant effect, and these people are (rightly) viewed as great figures of history.

I'm not talking about one person. I'm talking about groups. People have various degrees of power in a society. Those with power have more power to influence people's morality.

	15-11-2004 09:41									#102
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Societies have their own rules about killing and taking things. You're losing the forest for the trees. Has there ever been a society where it's okay to steal? Has there ever been a society where it's okay to murder? No in both cases. While a specific ruler here or there may have the right to take what he wants or kill whom he pleases, that's a detail. Even then he doesn't let his subjects go around committing murder or stealing willy-nilly. Why? Because regardless of the exceptions, people need to be safe and secure or society will (and did) collapse. quote: To maintain power you have to make people either believe that your rules about killing and taking things are just or you punish the people who disagree with you. Irrelevent. That has nothing to do with the origin of morals. It only has to do with who has the power to enforce them and provide exceptions to the morals. Without the basic moral code of humanity, society becomes dysfunctional and collapses. It doesn't matter who's ruling, except in that he won't be ruling very long.

I'm not suggesting that a society where anyone could take what ever they had the physical power too or kill who ever they could would survive. Of course, a society like that would collapse, and would not benefit the rulers of the society. But more often than that taking things from people, including their life is legal and moral within a society. Society doesn't collapse, because the rules benefit enough people with power. The victims without power would like to do something about it, but can't. Because they don't have the power to do so. Only when the rulers lose their power can there be a revolution and a change in morality that benefits the new rulers.

There is no 'basic' morality in a society where people have unequal power and special economic interests. Each special interest has a morality that benefits their own interests. The rulers of the society are able to tie more people to them with economic interests, and affect morality that way.

	15-11-2004 09:51									#103
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There are some hunter - gatherer tribes which do not seem to have a concept of property. Objects are available for anyone to take and use. I think the concept of property develops parallel with the development of agriculture - when people have to labor to produse their substinannce they develop a certain degree of possessiveness.

The ancient tale of Gilgamesh, thought to be the oldest known myth describes a powerful man who essentially brutalizes the people of the city at will. He encounters the sacred beast and fights it over and over. Having found an opponent worthy of his prowess he becomes a better citizen. He and the beast become great friends. When he finally slays the beast he deifies the critter and requires that the people worship as he does. What puzzles me is why archaelogists haven't seen the obvious truth about this important historical document. Not only is it the oldest known religion, but it describes the invention of sport and provides a valuable insight into the psyche of ancient man and also the psychology of violence.

	15-11-2004 09:53									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious a society like that would collapse, and would not benefit the rulers of the society. . . . Society doesn't collapse, because the rules benefit enough people with power.

Rulers are perfectly capable of being deluded. Note my previous example of the Aztecs. The fact that it would not materially benefit the ruling class doesn't mean that they might not believe otherwise or that the leadership might be crazy. There is a significant section of the ruling class in America that believed it would be better off with a nuclear war against the USSR. That fact that that was utter madness didn't preclude them from holding that conviction deeply.

quote: There is no 'basic' morality in a society where people have unequal power and special economic interests.

Yes there is. It's just that the exceptions are "justified," either for the greater good or by some religious or ethical reasoning.

	15-11-2004 09:58									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I see. All that campaigning and speeches for nothing.

Not for nothing; to convince America that Bush represents their morality.

Even if Bush doesn't, and he enforces something different, he won't change their morality. He'll just force them to live under a morality not their own (which is obviously possible).

quote: I'm not talking about one person. I'm talking about groups. People have various degrees of power in a society. Those with power have more power to influence people's morality.

Power in general really doesn't translate into power to change the underlying morality of society. People who do change that are often effectively powerless. Jesus, for example.

	15-11-2004 10:26									#106
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Kidicious [q]There is no 'basic' morality in a society where people have unequal power and special economic interests. Yes there is. It's just that the exceptions are "justified," either for the greater good or by some religious or ethical reasoning.

We don't really disagree. I'm just saying that when you 'justify' something. That that's your morality, whether it's wrong or right.

	15-11-2004 10:41									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I see. All that campaigning and speeches for nothing. Not for nothing; to convince America that Bush represents their morality. Even if Bush doesn't, and he enforces something different, he won't change their morality. He'll just force them to live under a morality not their own (which is obviously possible).

It goes beyond conservatives convincing conservatives that they are conservatives. The purpose is to make people conservative. I think that's pretty obvious. I mean otherwise the content of the speeches would consist of things like "I'm a conservative because I want to cut your taxes" not things like "I want to cut your taxes because government doesn't deserve it, you do." It's not hard to presuade someone that you are politically alligned with them. You can just send something out in the mail for that. You don't need any presuasive political talk at all.

quote: quote: I'm not talking about one person. I'm talking about groups. People have various degrees of power in a society. Those with power have more power to influence people's morality. Power in general really doesn't translate into power to change the underlying morality of society. People who do change that are often effectively powerless. Jesus, for example.

Jesus wasn't powerless. He was very influencial. Money and position aren't the only source of power, but they are source.

	15-11-2004 12:52									#108
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Berzerker:

quote: Eating the apple was sexual - procreation. That's why they knew they were naked and wore fig leaves.

So you do not believe they slept together before the fall?

No. The issue was not procreation, eating the apple is disobedience from God. The serpent told them they could be gods themselves, which is why Eve and Adam disobeyed.

quote: The "Serpent" harkens back to the Sumerian god, Ea or Enki, who was responsible for our creation. Even in the Bible it is the Serpent who is responsible for Adam and Eve having children, not God. He was mad because they had sex and conceived. He didn't want his Garden being over run with humans...

You can go with this connection, or with the simple point made by Christianity that Satan is the serpent, and that Satan can take many forms.

The serpent is not just another god taken from another religion, there are essential Christian characteristics to the serpent in the garden not found anywhere else.

I'm curious as to who told you that eating the apple was about procreation. It makes no sense. Nakedness is one thing. To know that nakedness is 'wrong' is quite another. If adam and eve knew that they were naked, it does not follow from that, that they would need to cover themselves up.

Now, you consider the sin of adam to be procreation. This makes little sense. Why, if adam sinned by procreating, would God command them to do so as soon as they got out of the Garden?

	15-11-2004 19:59									#109
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Ben -

quote: So you do not believe they slept together before the fall?

The apple represents the "wisdom" to procreate. I don't know if they slept together before the fall but it's clear they did not have children until after eating the apple.

quote: No. The issue was not procreation, eating the apple is disobedience from God. The serpent told them they could be gods themselves, which is why Eve and Adam disobeyed.

Do you think God just wanted to see if Adam could follow His order? There was a consequence of eating the apple, a consequence God didn't want to see realised. After Adam and Eve are kicked out of the Garden, what's the very first thing we see happen? Adam and Eve conceive a child followed by another.
They "created" life, hence they were like God...

quote: You can go with this connection, or with the simple point made by Christianity that Satan is the serpent, and that Satan can take many forms. The serpent is not just another god taken from another religion, there are essential Christian characteristics to the serpent in the garden not found anywhere else.

Like what? According to Jesus, the serpent represents wisdom. What does Eve say about the apple? It is a source of wisdom. In the Sumerian religion, Ea is the God of wisdom and he is represented by the serpent. In the Sumerian religion it is this serpent god who is responsible for humanity becoming wise and proliferating, the same role played by the Serpent in the Garden.

quote: I'm curious as to who told you that eating the apple was about procreation. It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense, I learned of this through reading Genesis and it's Mesopotamian sources - comparative religion.

quote: Nakedness is one thing. To know that nakedness is 'wrong' is quite another.

Nakedness refers to the knowledge of procreation, and this knowledge was "wrong" simply because God did not want humans proliferating in his garden. What did God tell his colleagues once he discovered Adam and Eve's newfound wisdom? Did he tell them we must punish them for dis-obedience? No, he told them we must punish them before they partake of the tree of life and become even more like the gods. The same motive for punishing humans is found in the Tower of Babel story, humans attempt to reach Heaven and this angers God.

quote: If adam and eve knew that they were naked, it does not follow from that, that they would need to cover themselves up.

It would if this knowledge of "nakedness" angered God.
This "nakedness" refers to a certain kind of knowledge, the knowledge of procreation. Somehow God discovered that Adam and Eve had acquired this knowledge inspite of their attempt to hide it from him.

quote: Now, you consider the sin of adam to be procreation. This makes little sense. Why, if adam sinned by procreating, would God command them to do so as soon as they got out of the Garden?

God didn't command them to procreate, they did that on their own.

	15-11-2004 20:32									#110
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God is almighty Berz. Everything that he wants to happen, happens.

	15-11-2004 22:31									#111
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Societies have their own rules about killing and taking things. Has there ever been a society where it's okay to steal? Has there ever been a society where it's okay to murder?

Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.


It was okay to steal, providing that you 'stole' from France, the Netherlands, Soviet Russia, Poland, China, Hong Kong, Korea, Indonesia, et cetera.


You could also steal from German citizens who were not Aryan- Jews, Romanies, Socialists, and so on.

You could murder selected groups and individuals- both societies created whole groups of slaves whose lives were irrelevant, and whole groups of subject peoples who could be used as disposables in medical experiments and in Nazi Germany of course, they could also dispose of humans who were mentally or physically not up to scratch by their standards.

The Nazis also dismantled and stole whole factories and indistrial units in occupied countries, shipping them back to the homeland.

Pirate societies, such as Formosa, when occupied by Coxinga, and Madagascarand various other islands in the Caribbean and Indian Ocean in the 17th and 18th centuries existed by stealing- either from the inhabitants of nearby states or from commercial shipping.

Even Napoleon the Lawgiver ransacked huge amounts of goods and artworks from occupied states- Venice is still awaiting the return of pillaged artworks taken from the defeated Republic centuries ago and residing still in the Louvre.

So in short, societies have at various times decreed it's all right to steal, providing you do it 'properly'.

	15-11-2004 22:33									#112
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And how did Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany fare? Not well.

I think that was Che's point.

-Arrian

	15-11-2004 22:47									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian And how did Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany fare? Not well. I think that was Che's point. -Arrian

I don't think it was- it was o.k. to steal and murder, providing you did it to selected groups, the 'enemies' of society, or to conquered peoples.

It didn't mean that the ordinary Japanese and German wasn't a law abiding citizen, or that there weren't rafts of laws forbidding or restricting a whole host of things, but those laws could be overridden or abrogated or suspended as the case arose.

	15-11-2004 22:55									#114
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quote: I don't think it was- it was o.k. to steal and murder, providing you did it to selected groups

Sure. But once those selected groups included powerful foreign countries, things went south in a hurry.

-Arrian

	15-11-2004 23:03									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Sure. But once those selected groups included powerful foreign countries, things went south in a hurry. -Arrian

Which doesn't negate my original point- they simply attacked (stole from) the wrong people- it didn't mean that stealing from or killing certain groups was suddenly wrong in Nazi Germany or Japan.

	15-11-2004 23:57									#116
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Kid, I've got a question.

You believe that each society either has or could have different morals.

Fair enough.

The logical question, though, is whether or not you believe that each moral standard is equally valid, objectively speaking. That is, does any one society's moral standard have an objective claim to being more correct/valid, or are they all pretty much the same?

If they are all the same, then it's pretty tough for you to criticize Nazi Germany from a moral standpoint, and if that's the case, then objectively speaking, there was no moral basis for the Nuremburg trials.

The only way around this is to say that the overriding moral principle is that might makes right. This not only destroys the belief that all morals are equally valid, because we just found an overriding moral principle, but it also makes the concept of morals pretty much irrelevant anyway.

Now, on the other hand, maybe you believe that there IS some way to judge a society's morals, other than on the basis of might makes right. Granted, you seem to have been arguing against this, but I could have misunderstood you, and I'm interested in a clarification.

So which is it? Do you want to admit that ultimately you believe "might makes right" is the overriding moral principle, or do you want to admit that there is some other overriding moral principle?

	16-11-2004 00:07									#117
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Which doesn't negate my original point- they simply attacked (stole from) the wrong people- it didn't mean that stealing from or killing certain groups was suddenly wrong in Nazi Germany or Japan.

Yes, but my point is, once a society allows such wholesale behavior, it is not long for the world. Either its own people or its neighbors will do away with it. The point I was making is, once such a society begins violating the basic rules of humanity, it undermines its own ability to survive.

	16-11-2004 00:10									#118
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quote: The point I was making is, once such a society begins violating the basic rules of humanity, it undermines its own ability to survive.

I actually agree with you, but where do you think those "basic rules of humanity" come from?

	16-11-2004 00:17									#119
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quote: where do you think those "basic rules of humanity" come from?

The $64 Million Question. Unfortunetly no one has been able to claim the prize yet .

	16-11-2004 00:18									#120
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Staying away from the "from God" response (because that's rather useless in this kind of discussion), I'd personally lean toward Berz's argument about universal shared desires (big surprise there, huh?).