18-11-2004 00:48									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No acting in your own interest is amoral .

Unless you feel morally compelled to act in your own interest.

	18-11-2004 00:53									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Unless you feel morally compelled to act in your own interest.

People aren't morally compelled to act in their own interest. Acting in your own self interest comes naturally. If you want to act morally you must disregard your own interest. If you don't disregard your own interest the eithical conclusions will be biased towards yourself, obviously.

	18-11-2004 00:54									#183
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quote: People aren't morally compelled to act in their own interest. Acting in your own self interes comes naturally.

Why not?

Acting to defend your children comes naturally, and that doesn't mean it's not a moral compulsion. You can feel morally compelled to do something that happens to be in your self-interest.

	18-11-2004 01:00									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: People aren't morally compelled to act in their own interest. Acting in your own self interes comes naturally. Why not? Acting to defend your children comes naturally, and that doesn't mean it's not a moral compulsion. You can feel morally compelled to do something that happens to be in your self-interest.

That's not the same as assuming in the first place that acting in your self-interest is moral. In fact, it's not even the same assumption. You're using the assumption that you should act in your children's interest. And if defending your children comes at any cost to you, then you are assuming that you should act in their interest instead of your own when those interests come into conflict.

	18-11-2004 01:02									#185
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But why can't you just assume that acting in your self-interest is moral?

	18-11-2004 01:03									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious A principle is a basic truth or assumption. A moral principle is used to determine what action we should take to act ethically. People may believe that acting in their self-interest is for a greater good, but you can hardly say that it's the basis for morality.

You miss the question:

Can you give me an example of a "moral principle" in your mind?

	18-11-2004 01:07									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker But why can't you just assume that acting in your self-interest is moral?

You can, but it's not a basis for morality. People are biased towards their selves. The basis for morality must be without bias.

	18-11-2004 01:09									#188
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Why?!

	18-11-2004 01:16									#189
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You miss the question: Can you give me an example of a "moral principle" in your mind?

Everyone should be treated equally.

	18-11-2004 01:19									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Why?!

Bias is a barrier to truth.

	18-11-2004 01:21									#191
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I give up.

	18-11-2004 01:22									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I give up.

You don't think bias is a barrier to truth?

	18-11-2004 01:23									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Everyone should be treated equally.

Fine. OK, why? Why is this good? Why is this better than not treating them all equal?

That is the issue: every "principle" you can name me is either to be assumed as utterly arbitrary, meaning there is no actual core for morals, or you have to deconstruct this statement down further.

What I am others are saying is that once you do that deconstruction, in the end you find the principle of survival is the base.

	18-11-2004 01:24									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You don't think bias is a barrier to truth?

Yes, it is. You are a great example of that principle in action though.

	18-11-2004 01:33									#195
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, it is. You are a great example of that principle in action though.

Why?

	18-11-2004 01:37									#196
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Because you are unwilling to overcome your bias vis a vi the notion that moral principles could be built upon the notion of self-interest.

But I refer to my other post- you say equality is a principle- yes, it is: but just stating a principle is not saying why it is valid- you need to deconstruct- go ahead, do it, and we can then continue.

	18-11-2004 01:39									#197
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Fine. OK, why? Why is this good? Why is this better than not treating them all equal?

Because not treating all people equal will result in those will more power being treated better, and I see no reason why those will power should be treated better.

quote: That is the issue: every "principle" you can name me is either to be assumed as utterly arbitrary, meaning there is no actual core for morals, or you have to deconstruct this statement down further.

No. It all comes down to your assumption. Is your assumption true or not.

quote: What I am others are saying is that once you do that deconstruction, in the end you find the principle of survival is the base.

Principle of self-preservation? Why?

	18-11-2004 01:43									#198
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Because you are unwilling to overcome your bias vis a vi the notion that moral principles could be built upon the notion of self-interest.

You are only stating that I'm biased. You aren't giving me a reason why you think that. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I am unwilling to do so.

	18-11-2004 01:59									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Because not treating all people equal will result in those will more power being treated better, and I see no reason why those will power should be treated better.

Fine, but then someone else could just as reasonably decide there is no reason why those who are powerless should be treated like those with power.

quote: No. It all comes down to your assumption. Is your assumption true or not.

If the above is an example of what you call an assumption, then you have issues: for example, Equality is neither true nor false-and can never be either.

quote: Principle of self-preservation? Why?

Because life is a system of self-replicating chemical processes. Death = the negation of life, the end of everything, hence also the end of meaning. So self-preservation is the basis of everything else, because if you die, all these questions are irrelevant.

	18-11-2004 02:07									#200
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Fine, but then someone else could just as reasonably decide there is no reason why those who are powerless should be treated like those with power.

Kindly state this reasonable reason.

quote: quote: No. It all comes down to your assumption. Is your assumption true or not. If the above is an example of what you call an assumption, then you have issues: for example, Equality is neither true nor false-and can never be either.

Why? Sorry, but the burden is clearly on you at this point. Your claims are not common.

quote: Because life is a system of self-replicating chemical processes. Death = the negation of life, the end of everything, hence also the end of meaning. So self-preservation is the basis of everything else, because if you die, all these questions are irrelevant.

Huh? If I die everything is irrelevent? This is your assumption?

	18-11-2004 02:17									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Evolution is a physical process. And it is geological evolution - those geological features which continue or reproduce themselves, continue of reproduce. Volcanos don't. Precious few geological features do, in the very long run, but evolution by natural selection is true of any system, because it is a tautology.

Name some of these geological features that 'reproduce'.

You're saying is that things which exist, exist, and then claiming that this is proof that everything currently in existence has been somehow 'selected' to survive. Presumably if I grabbed a bead from a bag filled with identical beads and threw the bag into the fireplace, that counts as 'natural selection' in your book. Despite the bead not being able to reproduce, nor having any method of repeating its 'success'.

That's got nothing to do with biological evolution, which is about persistant traits, not space-time coordinates, or social change, which is a different thing again.

	18-11-2004 03:14									#202
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quote: Name some of these geological features that 'reproduce'.

None of them, which is why they end up disappearing in the long run.

quote: You're saying is that things which exist, exist, and then claiming that this is proof that everything currently in existence has been somehow 'selected' to survive. Presumably if I grabbed a bead from a bag filled with identical beads and threw the bag into the fireplace, that counts as 'natural selection' in your book. Despite the bead not being able to reproduce, nor having any method of repeating its 'success'.

Obviously, anything that exists, exists because its properties allowed its existance to begin or continue into this time. Applied to inheritable biological traits, this is the theory of evolution. It's tautological. The point being, that it's possible to draw a direct parallel between biological and social evolution.