08-07-2005 21:11									#31
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resurrecting this thread, and veering slightly to discussion on Specialty bases

I suggest the following for consideration:

Science & Research

Arcadia University

Has the Merchant Exchange there, plus a Hab Complex, so can grow to size 14. Also has a Rec Commons and a Holotheater. Will have its Tree Farm in 2179. I suggest the next build be a Research Hospital, followed by a Hybrid Forest, then a Biology Lab after we get Centauri Empathy

Air Force Academies

we have 3 bases with Aerospace Centers. I suggest that we take 2 of them - they don't need to be one on each continent as we're talking aircraft here - and build Bioenhancement Centers, and have them produce our aircraft as needed:

Fort Superiority

Currently produces 24 minerals, with the potential for around 40. But with its 2 boreholes is also a good research base, and perhaps with Arcadia University, Argos (2 energy specials!!) and Ironholm maybe should form our Research nexus rather than be an Air Academy

Fort Buster

Currently producing 15 minerals, with the potential of growing to 30 with forestation, or beyond with a borehole or two

Olympus Academy

Currently 10 minerals. Needs some terraforming - or imaginative crawler deployment - to get to that critical mas of 25 or so for churning out aircraft

Military Academies

As all bases have a Command Center, the only criteria should be inland (so as not to waste a potential naval base), not have an Aerospace Center (obviously) and good mineral output. One on each continent would be ideal. Candidates are:

Santiago Citadel

Currently stalled at size 7, so needs a Hab Complex to grow and a Holotheater, possibly a Tree Farm and Research Hospital as well, to handle drones. Would need a Bioenhancement center to produce instant Elites. Is a good minerals base, currently producing 17 per.

Rio Grande

Currently size 3, and will be size 4 in 20 turns, so no foreseeable drones. Currently produces 15 minerals, with quick (crawler) potential to 20, or mega with a borehole or two.

This is a strong candidate, but needs a Bioenhancement Center (100 minerals), so I suggest that we produce another crawler then either MM one or let one build naturally in three or four turns.

UN Headquarters (Kassiopeia's Citadel?)

Will be a great minerals-producing base with 4 mines. I suggest that after we stabilize the drones we get crawlers working those mines, get it to size 7 (with 2 cdf's, a rec commons and a Librarian), then focus on a Bioenhancement Center and maintain it as our Arcadian Military Headquarters

Naval Academies

As all bases also have Naval Yards (even the landlocked inland bases!!), maybe our decision where to build BioCenters and produce naval craft is more strategic than minerals-driven.

Candidates would be

• Messena, for our Northern Fleet HQ
  
• Gythium Harbour or Minas Tirith for our Buster Ocean Fleet
  
• Vladivostok ot 2 Nuts Strand for our western Arcadian Ocean Fleet
  
• Argos (see Research topic), Tegea Harbour, Iaci Base, Bunker 112, or Kel Harbour for our eastern Arcadian Ocean Fleet HQ
  
• UN High Commission or UN Aid Station for our eastern Arcadian fleet (that ocean still to be named)

	08-07-2005 22:35									#32
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We also need to think about where we want to have aerospace complexes for defensive purposes (protecting against air attacks and air drops). We might want a few in southern Arcadia because of that risk from the Data Angels.

Also, why would we want a biology lab at AU? Biology labs don't give +50% research, as far as I know. They only give +2 lab points at that base. Theoretically, they could be built anywhere and have the same effect on research.

Last edited by Zeiter on 08-07-2005 at 22:49

	08-07-2005 23:51									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Also, why would we want a biology lab at AU? Biology labs don't give +50% research, as far as I know. They only give +2 lab points at that base. Theoretically, they could be built anywhere and have the same effect on research.

That's true, but it's +2 lab points pre any facilities multipliers. We have a network node there already, so that 2 becomes 3, then if we do put in a research hospital, it becomes 4.5, and if a fusion lab, then 6.75 and so on. Right now the base produces 20 lab points. If we had a BioLab, it'd be 23, a 15% increase. And even if it just means that somewhere down the line we get a tech 1 turn earlier than we otherwise would have, wouldn't it be worthwhile then?

By itself it's not very costly (2 crawlers, or 60 minerals), but in terms of protecting against a random event (they are activated in this game) at our science base, plus the contribution to research, IMO it's worth it

But of course, I'll bow to the will of the majority opinion

	08-07-2005 23:56									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter We also need to think about where we want to have aerospace complexes for defensive purposes (protecting against air attacks and air drops). We might want a few in southern Arcadia because of that risk from the Data Angels.

Very true. And the Angels have drop capability now, with MMI.

So an early build of an Aerospace at UN Aid Station (which is the only base within 8 tiles of a possible Angels staging area) makes sense

(Temple of Sol is within range - for them - of their MartPact base, and could be used to launch against us - but of course, with PK infiltration, we'd see the build up)

	09-07-2005 07:00									#35
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quote: That's true, but it's +2 lab points pre any facilities multipliers.

Ah, didn't know that. Well, it sounds like a good deal, then.

quote: (Temple of Sol is within range - for them - of their MartPact base, and could be used to launch against us - but of course, with PK infiltration, we'd see the build up)

But wait, wouldn't the Angels be able to air drop into Temple of Sol, but then move out of the base? And wouldn't we be unable to detect them if they did that? We could always station some units around there, I guess.

	09-07-2005 18:42									#36
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If lal ever does submit, we could just keep a pair of old B-4's on indefinite shuttle between UNHQ and temple - that'd show up anything on their route.

But it does beg a question:

Do we want to enslave lal, or eradicate him?

I ask, cos if we enslave him then we are pacted, and the Angels will then see the kind of data on us as we currently see on them (thru their Lal-pact and our Lal-infiltration). It's not as much as their having full infiltration on us, but still a lot more than they currently have on us (it'd give them our bases, names and populations, all techs and current tech being researched and energy reserves)

Eradicatibg lal would leave them blind (assuming we have adequate Crypteia defences) plus remove that possibility of airdrops onto the Arcadian Continent

	10-07-2005 00:13									#37
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Hmmm, yes, considering those questions, I'd say eradicate him.

	10-07-2005 09:01									#38
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eradication looks good to me

	10-07-2005 21:10									#39
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Buh-bye Lal.

	10-07-2005 22:18									#40
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Lal had his chance to surrender... He decided not to! Finish him!

Considering the suggestions:

-- At AU, I'd build the HF before the Hospital. Equal psych bonus but, with so many forest tiles, the energy surplus would benefit both labs and economy, + the economy bonus.

-- When you say Fort Sup should be part of the research nexus instead of be an air academy, it's not exclusive. To maximize the research, we just have to build the HF (with the flying crawler, it can be this week) and an Hospital. After that, a Bioenhancement Center can make it an air academy. It depends when we want the military infrastructure ready.

-- Do we really need 4 naval bases, at least short-term?

More general, it goes down to "so much to do, so little resources to share".
If we're not in a hurry concerning the next war, the more we improve our bases now, the faster we'll be able to build bio-centers and units later. By analyzing the trends, we should know 'where we can go too far' in postponing a big military build-up to promote industrial power. With so huge a territory and so many bases, the current investment should put us well ahead of the others...but that's to be discussed in The Council of War.
Anyway, we need at least two bio-enhanced bases of each kind kind (sea, air and land).

	10-07-2005 22:34									#41
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Don't forget that eliminating Lal would leave us blind without Angel infiltration data.

	11-07-2005 05:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Don't forget that eliminating Lal would leave us blind without Angel infiltration data.

This is true.

And there is another option other than enslavement or annihilation. We can always accept his "Allow me to make amends" plea and sign a truce - even a Treaty. That wouldn't give the Angels any data on us and would maintain our partial "third party" infiltration on them (so long as they remained pacted with Lal)

	23-07-2005 07:52									#43
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Here's a minimap of the southern freshwater sea area - I've hilited where i think new bases might rock (black on purple) due to abundance of specials (yellow circles)

Attachment: 2180 - future bases.gif
This has been downloaded 56 time(s).

	23-07-2005 12:14									#44
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Add one at Arcadia Regional Command 111. I would even suggest starting there, as that base would not require such serious defensive preparations, while still providing access to the two pods.

	23-07-2005 13:26									#45
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To not waste valuable time, I suggest (shouldn't be too expensive) that we 'buy' (mc) Lal's colony pod and formers next turns.
Let's put these assets in responsible hands!

	23-07-2005 20:41									#46
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Ah, yes, that spot 3 tiles southwest of Arcadia Regional Command (or the spot 3 tiles southwest and 1 tile southeast on the river) would be great spots. That base would have access to the monolith, the energy bonus in the sea, the nutrient bonus, and the pod would be inside the base radius.

	24-07-2005 00:11									#47
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There are different factors to take into consideration.

Founding the city southwest of ARC would provide maximum security. However, it would need to build a naval vessel (probably a seaformer to maximize investment) to harvest the 2 pods.

The middle location on the west-strip,however (my favorite one):
-- would grant immediate access to the pod to our military ships.
-- would offer 7 tiles already terraformed (6 forests and 1 monolith) + bonus mins and nuts.
-- would offer a splendid base for air patrols above the channel to the Gaian shore (and thus enabling air support and air superiority in case of...degraded relations! ). It could make them afraid enough to shift from builder mode to semi-military one, thus wasting resources.

Its relative isolation shouldn't prevent us from making it a major base by sending naval crawlers!

	24-07-2005 00:45									#48
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quote: Originally posted by vishniac Founding the city southwest of ARC would provide maximum security. However, it would need to build a naval vessel (probably a seaformer to maximize investment) to harvest the 2 pods.

That base spot has potential for good productivity regardless of the pods. And we can build it soon, while the other bases will need protection. So, they will have to wait anyway, while this closer base will not. Just an opportunity I see here, that is all.

	05-08-2005 00:01									#49
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Proposal: Instabuild the Supercollider at Arcadia University

Cost: 300 minerals

Assets required:

• The ginfreighter (150 minerals) - currently convoying 2 minerals to Iaci Base - it has a 2-nut surplus so would revert to just feeding itself)
  
• The Builder Bob on the mine to AU's southwest (110 minerals) - currently convoying 4 minerals to Argos (would drop Argos from 11 mins to 7 mins, but Argos has a completed crawler in base for MM'ing a network node that could be diverted for mineral production if necessary)
  
• The regular supply crawler just north of Ironholm (30 minerals) - currently convoying 2 energy to AU
  
• no credits would be needed as AU is producing 14 minerals (and only ten more are needed for completion)

	05-08-2005 00:25									#50
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I vote for instabuilding it this turn. :b

	10-08-2005 23:53									#51
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The Ministry of infrastructure presents :

THE 2183 COMPREHENSIVE DECENNAL REPORT

Its goal is to provide the Junta with the latest analysises about Sparta civilian infrastructure and to offer guidelines to enhance our potential in the areas of concern. Though (very) important, military infrastructure won’t be discussed here as it is under responsibility of the Ministry of Defence.

I – Adressing the scientific emergency

Taking the lead in tech is not enough when competing against several powers. We should make the gap so as to seize any SP we choose before the others.
Speaking short-term, we are also in a race (not yet decided) to grab the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.
That means the first priority is to boost massively the research output, and the best way to do it is to spend money where it will bring back the most. The recommendations here are to:
- build the Supercollider without delay (for fear of any trick and instabuild by an enemy). The fact that AU gets -1 energy/tile doesn’t change the fact that The Sup. doubles the lab output and can save us a few turns to PSA.
- build the Hybrid Forest at Fort Sup without delaying further (this turn if possible).
These are the immediate actions. Further, we ask to:
- build Hospital + Hybrid Forest + BioLab + Rec Tanks at AU as a priority
- turn all production in Northern Arcadia to crawlers so as to adress this need ASAP.
- build a BioLab at Fort Supwhen available to take opportunity of the huge lab output there.

Not only should that take us under the 10 turn/tech in 2193 (when AU’s haze will have vanished), but it is also in adequation with the need to have superbases to grow infrastructure faster in small bases.
A last point: though it won’t be required in every base, the BioLab should be made a priority in every base with more than 6 forest tiles as soon as the Tree Farm be built: not because we need the lab output (though it won’t hurt in a well-developped base) but of course for fear of Planet Blight.

II – Arcadia: from North to Center

A quick look at the map shows that Northern Arcadia is almost completely covered with forest. Then, down from Tegea Harbor, it becomes less common, mainly following the coasts . We follow the reasoning called “Growing Snowball” here: the bigger the snowball with which you begin, the quickest it will become huge. That means that credits invested in big bases bring back more and quicker than to spread them to many little ones.
It was fortunate that the 2 priorities (AU and FS) are neighbors and surrounded by woods. So we support Chapter I: Once FS and AU completed, they’ll send all their production crawler-wise to Fort Liberty and Tegea Harbor, perhaps diverting 30% to help Argos. Then, these 4 will help Argos and Ironholm and will already send crawlers down the Transarcadian Highway to the next growth target, and so on.

The fact that forests are self-replicating enable to ‘former-focus’: concentrate the formers on rocky tiles (or even defungusing to help propagate woods) around the next targets of growth. Thus, instabuilding several facilities in as many turns in a certain base won’t take delays to take effect but will be almost immediately rewarded. That can’t be the case if the formers are painfully working one by base. Each base should first see a swarm of formers,then a flow of crawlers:
Fort Sup need some tiles more
Ironholm is particularly in need of more forest.
Argos could like to see ‘something’ on its 2 energy bonuses.

Some details here:
AU won’t need its condensor tile much longer. Better make it reapt by another’s base crawler. Same remark for the condensor at Tegea Harbor now that TH has a Tree Farm able to boost it to pop 9.

Now, the other bases form North to South:
- Vijayanagar: only 3 forest tiles, but there sure will be much more by the time the former-swarm arrive. That said, it could use a former to farm the nut-bonus, then help forest the south of the city (the forest coming from the North).
- Iaci Base: 6 exploitable forest tiles but No Raw Materials. No worry! Let it wait the crawlers flow. That’s all it needs.
- Assassin’s redoubt: a few forests and rocky tiles. Will need the formers swarm.
- Kel Harbor and Bunker 112: Just put Rec Tanks in B-112 and Tree Farm on both and we’ll get another developpement pole in the center.

III – Arcadia Center/South

We recommend to invest to get another developpement pole in this region. As said in Chapter II, the twin cities of Kel Harbor and Bunker 112 could be popbooming with little effort.
Otherwise:
- ARC has many mines but sorely miss forest. A solution to make it an industrial center would be to rehome 2 crawlers and send them to the farm and nut bonus tiles south of the city, with a former to farm the bonus (and begin foresting after that).
- Aid Station: with 6 forest tiles, would make a superb naval base. Rec Tanks + worker relocation would put it at +2 nuts, and then it’s the Tree Farm job to boost it.
- Health Autorithy: Many forests and 2 tiles already at 3 nuts! (the base itself is already +3). With a Creche and a Farm, it’ll go direct to pop 9.

As we see, infrastructure would get immediately rewarded in Southern Arcadia. It’s now the Junta’s role to decide which city to subsidize according to the ‘Growing Snowball’: concentrate on one city at a time.
The way to go is to use crawlers to upgrade cities in North/Center, and credits to hurry infrastructure in South.

IV – Laconia: a struggling infrastructure

Due to the necessities of early colonization, the bulk of cities in Laconia don’t have as much space as they’d like to.
Consequences: All forest tiles are already reapt (even though there are free tiles where it can spread…slowly) and almost all cities seem destined to stay regional centers unless we former-focus again on one city at a time.
The fortunate exception could be Gythium Harbor, the only city able to become superbase in short time. As previously agreed, we advocate to forest its south-east, and to mine the 3 unclaimed rocky tiles. Then skyrocket its industrial capacity by crawlering all 3 mines, and use production from the other cities to MM facilities to the max. That should do it. Once it reaches 30-35 minerals/turn, it’s all the way to crawlidize a second base…if it got enough forest around.
That means a few formers more too. But that would probably be the matter of the 2193 Decennal Report.
Details: Messena doesn’t need so many nuts. They could feed Rio Grande via crawlers.

V – Laconia: the Messena Syndrome

What we call ‘Messena Syndrome’ is the tendency to ‘artificially’ popboom a city without adequate mineral production.
Messena (pop 7 , mins 9) and Vladivostok (pop 7, mins 7) are prime exemple, compared with Santiago Citadel (pop 7, mins 13) and Gythium Harbor (pop 7, mins 12). Worse, that result comes at the price of too many former-work years. A farm + condensor cost 13+9 former-work years to get 4-1-0. The same effort would get 3-4 forests, just waiting the crawlers flow to give 6-8 minerals.
It wouldn’t be time-efficient to relocate all the formers working around the peripheric (?) bases, but it would be wise to change to forest-planting and mine. In need of more nuts, a few kelp farms would come handy without costing too much former-wise.
Resources should be spend 70% on a superbase (GH) and 30% on incremental steps in other bases according to necessity (popboom leading to drones…)

VI – Colonization prospective

Though facilities should be given priority, it’s up to the Junta to make decisions about new colonization. Here are our guidelines by importance:
- South of ARC, a base to go fishing the 2 pods.
- a base on the landstrip facing the Gaians to provide the Air Force with an airport. The site is rich with good tiles.
- South of 2Nutstrand, a base to consolidate our position facing Yang.
- A base between Iaci and Assassin, right on the mineral bonus (lots of forest already)
- A naval base on the nut bonus west of Fossil Field Ridge (all 6-tiles inside base radius)
- 2 naval bases in Geothermal Shallows, with specialty energy.
- either a naval base on the mins-bonus north-east of AU, or a base on the land in the same region (lots of forests)
- 2 bases on the Unity Wreckage. It can wait as forest must still grow in this area.

Conclusion

This report adresses all questions on how to get the biggest bases and the most minerals the soonest. However, it’s just one in a series of concerns that the Junta must deal with: Crypteia units and operations, military infrastructure (mainly bio-enhancement centers) and units, diplomacy,…
We look forward to see our propositions discussed and implemented, whatever the time it will get.
We serve Sparta!

	11-08-2005 07:47									#52
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Good summary

I'm thinking we need to grow AU to its max of size 16 asap, then crawl energy from that tile (with a solar collector to be built) on the hillside in Argos' base radius, plus trawl the 2 ocean tiles after clearing the fungus and plopping down a tidal harness (basic 2, plus 3 for the harness, plus 1 for the ME bonus, then doubled withe Supercollider)

On another note, our balance of paytments with the others is:

Running Planned:

Morgan - 27, Sparta - 14
Angels - 8, Sparta - 9
Gaians - 8, Sparta - 9

Running Free Market:

Morgan - 27, Sparta - 23
Angels - 13, Sparta - 15
Gaians - 13, Sparta - 14

(of course, we couldn't run free market with all those units away from home)

	11-08-2005 10:25									#53
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Speaking of money, if we want more, we can also build energy banks once superbases are finished and at pop 16.

I had the idea a few weeks ago of relocating the HQ in Fort Sup or AU when the region will be more productive. Would be nice to run a projection to see whether it's valuable or not. (No energy loss in the HQ base and fewer inefficiency around).

	12-08-2005 05:12									#54
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Looks good.
One minor thing I'd like to comment:

Regarding biolabs. Is it really worth building bio labs at 60 minerals in each base for the small chance that we might get a random event? My guess would be that it would be cheaper to just replant all the forests should we be so unlucky to actually get the random event.

	12-08-2005 05:16									#55
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I see that the University has founded a 4th base - we should rush a longstrider (prolly at Fort Soup, this turn) and get it there to protect our research

	12-08-2005 05:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by vishniac V – Laconia: the Messena Syndrome What we call ‘Messena Syndrome’ is the tendency to ‘artificially’ popboom a city without adequate mineral production. Messena (pop 7 , mins 9) and Vladivostok (pop 7, mins 7) are prime exemple, compared with Santiago Citadel (pop 7, mins 13) and Gythium Harbor (pop 7, mins 12). Worse, that result comes at the price of too many former-work years. A farm + condensor cost 13+9 former-work years to get 4-1-0. The same effort would get 3-4 forests, just waiting the crawlers flow to give 6-8 minerals.

Santiago Citadel and Gythium Harbour were popboomed the same way as Vladivostok and Messena. The difference is that, SC2 & GH being our oldest bases, forest has had a long time to spread out. Meaning there were some spare forests that could be immediate used after condenser farms gave us extra popboomed workers. Vladivostok and Messena were somewhat lacking in terraformation, however after as you suggest some forests are planted, I'm sure they should become as productive as SC2 & GH.

	12-08-2005 12:14									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Regarding biolabs. Is it really worth building bio labs at 60 minerals in each base for the small chance that we might get a random event? My guess would be that it would be cheaper to just replant all the forests should we be so unlucky to actually get the random event.

They are of lower priority but I think the superbases deserve all they can get in terms of improvement. The research bonus alone would be worth it in my opinion.

	12-08-2005 14:48									#58
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According to the report, a biolab should be built when 6 or more exploited tiles are forest.

In lesser bases, I agree it would be a waste of resources, but in places like future Argos or Kel Harbor which would have more than 10 forests around, 60 minerals aren't much: about 2 turns worth, comparing with losing hundreds of minerals the time we build/reassign formers from elsewhere, then each take 5 turns for 1 forest... Dreadful!

I'd prefer the Prometheus Virus any day than Blight striking a superbase.

	12-08-2005 23:55									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 They are of lower priority but I think the superbases deserve all they can get in terms of improvement. The research bonus alone would be worth it in my opinion.

It's only +2 labs, and the facility cost 1 credit upkeep. So that's one extra energy for 60 minerals. One can build two crawlers or three formers (to plant forests) with that.

	13-08-2005 00:40									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac It's only +2 labs, and the facility cost 1 credit upkeep.

You mean the lab bonus is not cumulative? Like, a steady +2 instead of a percentage?