14-11-2004 00:38									#1
	The Economic Planning Agency Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Googlie's comment a while ago:

quote: Well, at some point we're going to have to bite the bullet and grow our pop, or risk being relegated, along with the Gaians and the Angels, to bystanders as Morgan, the Hive and, to a lesser extent (if we have anything to say on the matter), the Uni-PK alliance, vie for supremacy Even if that means building some rec commons in our fast-growth bases

brought it to my mind that we don't really have a clearly stated plan for the economic development of our faction. As far as I know we've been more or less reacting ad hoc to the latest developments, without an “official” longterm plan to guide our actions.

That's why I've started this thread, so we could discuss our longterm economic strategy. I'll post below the idea I have been walking around with and basing my suggestions upon. Then perhaps others could post their ideas and then we can all discuss the merits and downsides of all the various plans.

Here we go as far as I'm concerned:
My plan for our possible midterm future development would go in three phases:

First phase and priority would be to to slow down growth in our size 2 & 3 bases, so we don’t have to spend all our minerals on building colony pods non-stop. This involves planting more forests so those can be worked instead of the 2-1-0 tiles. Building more formers might be required to plant sufficient forests in a decent timeframe.

When we no longer have to worry about population growth growing out of control, we can spend our minerals on other priorities. I think the best investment we can do in our current situation is harvesting four minerals on rocky mine squares. So the second phase would involve building and placing supply crawlers on all the nearby rocky squares, and of course build sufficient formers to construct the necessary mines.

After that we'd have a sufficiently high mineral production and large engineering corps to begin the third fase: popbooming! This involving building children's creches, rec commons and possibly tree farms. Especially here crawler-hurrying would become useful to speed up construction of those facilities. All our bases could build crawlers and they could all be sent to a limited number of bases to prepare those for popbooming in record time.

What do you think?

	16-11-2004 04:01									#2
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It's a sound strategy - but I need one clarification. Plant foreets over the farms, or in tiles adjacent to or elsewhere (to be crawled)

If over, then hybrid forests are a must (prolly a must anyway, thru treefarms that give some drone control boosts) for the nut boost they give

If adjacent, then that's OK too, 'cos we'll still have the underlying farms to boost nuts (but a lot cheaper and faster - initially - than TF's and HF's

	16-11-2004 05:35									#3
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Personally I'd consider a waste to re-terraform already farmed tiles, while we still have so many unterraformed tiles left. So personally I'd prefer not to plant forests over farms.

	16-11-2004 07:21									#4
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d'accord

	03-05-2005 16:31									#5
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While it seemed obvious building tree farms in our Peloponnesian bases was not worth the cost at the moment, and building condensers was the way to go, I assumed it would be profitable and certainly quicker to popboom with tree farms in Arcadia, as that option wouldn't require us to build a former corps out of nothing in Arcadia.

However I've now done the math a bit more thoroughly, and it appears the tree farm option is hardly profitable at all, even in Arcadia.

Here's the investment we'd need to make to popboom an Arcadian bases. I've taken the example of Argos, as that's a small base meaning it can still popboom a lot.

creche 5 rows
tree farm 12 rows
rec commons 4 rows
CDF 1 row
---
22 mineral rows

In Argos this would lead to an increase of 7 minerals, 5 credits and 2.4 labs after deducting support and maintenance costs.

By comparison, if we just built 7 crawlers (21 rows), we'd get 14 minerals when harvesting forests. Double that amount if we harvested mines, but then of course we'd first need the formers to build those mines...

In other words, tree farms hardly seem worth to build in all Arcadian bases, if the goal is to increase them all to size seven.

To sufficiently win back the high investment cost of tree farms and make a profit higher than simple forest crawling, we'd need to popboom our bases to size fourteen.

For that reason, may I suggest to focus our infrastructure improvement in Arcadia on Fort Superiority and Arcadia University for now? There the return is highest. Fort Soup already has a tree farm and a hologram theatre. AU also has a hologram theatre, and has the Merchant Exchange meaning each citizen gives one more energy. Tree farm and hologram theatre together double psych production, meaning only two doctors would be needed to keep all citizens above size seven content.

Building a modest former fleet in Arcadia would in this option be required after all, to construct a few condensers to feed the doctors in FS & AU, and still keep the 2 nut surplus required to popboom.


Oh, for the record, the Ascetic Virtues with its extra two citizens before the hab complex limit, and the +1 Police to easily control those two drones, would make building tree farms to popboom to the hab complex limit (size nine then) profitable after all.

	03-05-2005 16:41									#6
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Yes, the big bases profit more from Tree Farms. As to Argos, or any base with many Forest tiles, the investment is long-term. Also, there is the economy boost (Tree Farm + tiles worked by the added population) Crawlers simply do not bring. Again, this is about the gains from steady growth against the short-term increase. And since the end of the game is not defined yet, what do you think is the better choice? I mean, can the short-term increase provide us with a win?

One question about base structures. Does it make any sense to build Creches before Rec Tanks in bases with zero growth? Can we shift enough food to make them grow?

Last edited by Modo44 on 03-05-2005 at 16:49

	03-05-2005 18:52									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Also, there is the economy boost (Tree Farm + tiles worked by the added population) Crawlers simply do not bring.

Indeed. In addition to 7 minerals tree farms would also provide Argos with 5 credits and 2 labs. However if I had to make the choice between that or 14 minerals, I'd choose the 14 minerals.

But for the record, I'm not suggesting to not build tree farms ever in Argos. Just to wait until we're ready, which means until we can popboom straight to size 14 instead of just 7.

quote: One question about base structures. Does it make any sense to build Creches before Rec Tanks in bases with zero growth? Can we shift enough food to make them grow?

When faced with that choice, personally I'd say to build extra formers first to build a condenser farm. After the first condenser is ready and there's a nutrient surplus, I'd suggest to build the creche.

	03-05-2005 19:42									#8
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I am beginning to see. You mean to:

• Improve minerals output in bases at zero production with Crawlers.
  
• Build the necessary infrastructure to support growth and a high population.
  
• Then let bases grow.

I still find rushing the cheap structures and building Tree Farms better in Forest-rich Arcadia. The problem there is the lack of Formers. Formers we can do without, for we have the Forests. The expense can be saved and other things built/rushed instead.

As for the main continent, that will need the Formers anyway, so anything most efficient looks like the way to go.

	03-05-2005 21:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I still find rushing the cheap structures and building Tree Farms better in Forest-rich Arcadia. The problem there is the lack of Formers. Formers we can do without, for we have the Forests. The expense can be saved and other things built/rushed instead.

We could indeed popboom all our Arcadian bases (except Ironholm) to size seven without building a single former. But if we want to popboom beyond size seven - which is necessary if we want to make our investment in tree farms worthwhile - we do need some formers to construct condensers. For when going above size seven, we have no other cheap choice but to use doctors to control our drones, and those don't provide nutrients. Meaning we have to get the nutrients elsewhere to stay at a +2 nutrient surplus.

	03-05-2005 21:22									#10
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Or kelp farms for the coastal bases. (Arcadia University's ocean nut special is 5 nutsworth after kelping)

That'd need a seaformer, of course (40 mins for a foil former, 50 for a foil fungiformer, 60 for a cruiserformer and 80 for a cruiser fungiformer)

AU could complete a foil fungiformer in 2 turns using the MM and that next-turn crawler, plus 10 ec's, if we so wanted

	03-05-2005 21:24									#11
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Great idea.

	03-05-2005 21:32									#12
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Kelp Farms are also better because they grow sometimes without help.

	03-05-2005 23:53									#13
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Though initially adamantly opposed, I am now really looking forward to seeing us use our massive production for long term infrastructure investments. "Pop-Boom" eh? I'm looking forward to seeing exactly what that is Go Sparta!

	04-05-2005 01:39									#14
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80 formers, 250 crawlers, 45 borehholes .....

	09-05-2005 10:14									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie 80 formers, 250 crawlers, 45 borehholes .....

I read once somewhere that the key to winning in SMAC was former armies...

80 formers... wow

	09-05-2005 12:14									#16
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quote: Originally posted by wuy3 I read once somewhere that the key to winning in SMAC was former armies...

True. But you can lower the necessary numbers considerably through good management. I believe Maniac and Googlie were doing that pretty well so far (except for the not planting Forests part ).

	10-05-2005 00:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by wuy3 80 formers... wow

I once played in a PBEM with big_canuck (against Tau Ceti and Misotu) - where b_c had over 200 formers, and in 1 turn built a 14 tile long landbridge, with roads and magtubes, right into TC's heartland, and followed up with an invasion force that took about 16 of Tau's 20 or so bases.

Took b_c about 2 days to play the turn, and you can imagine Tau's face when he opened the turn and saw ..................

	10-05-2005 02:14									#18
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So why didn't be build forests in the beginning? Did we just decide to concentrate on roads instead or something? Or did the worms get out formers?

	10-05-2005 21:20									#19
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Just too little formers I guess.
Also our early terraformation was focused on farming the crater for 2-2-1 tiles. Foresting those wouldn't have been as good, as the extra crater mineral was lost before we had Ecological Engineering.

	15-05-2005 22:05									#20
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Communication from the Ministry of Infrastructure

Ok, popbooming is on the way and we have some turns of peace to develop infrastructure and thus industrial and military capacity.

First thing to ask:
With the current 'soft' bullying of the Angels, and Yang having withdrawn his border units, how long can we hope to stay at peace?
Do we have any offensive desires or planning yet, or shall we wait for an opportunity?
The answers will determine the build options.

Some cities will need new build orders on turn 2171:
-South Craterwest, but it was said we'll instabuild The Planetary Datalinks there (yes?).
- Tegea Harbour, but perhaps we'll use it for the Ascetic Virtues.

Other cities in Messenia are:
-- Rio Grande
-- Fort Buster: growth stagnant but 17 minerals.
-- Santiago Citadel
-- Olympus Academy
-- Vladivostok
3 of the 5 finish a former. We have to decide between more formers, crawlers (there are already quite a few but some SP are coming), military units or facilities.

When we'll know about the pod-popping, there should be a decision about Minas Tirith and 2Nuts Strand, both at No Minerals. I would particularly like to see 2NS growing swiftly for it is our more southern base, is a harbour, and can be a major support point and colonization departure. It should be twined with another city sending it crawlers to build a sea former and land facilities.

Arcadia University: The sea former is an excellent idea. But after that, with growth stagnant, i'd advise a Tree farm ASAP. It would add 3 nutrients a turn and would be paid by its own 50% economy.

Fort Superiority: When some deny the construction of tree farms as too expensive, we build a hab complex when growth will still take 32 turns after completion (effectively costing us 64 energy). For minimizing the loss and maximizing the utilization of the hab, it should be followed by a Hybrid Forest.

Tegea harbour has 7 tiles of forest available for itself. You know what I mean!

About more mid-term expansion: there are some good points where to found bases on land (for bonus or strategic reasons) but I'd like to submit you something.
In a few turns (about 6 or 7), Fort Sup (and its 24 minerals) could build copter-colony-pods (expensive but much time-efficient) and Arcadia University 2 or 3 seaformers.
The goals?
-- Fossil Field Ridge! One base can encompass the entire field + 2 bonus nutrients!!! With Aquafarm and Subsea Trunkline, it would be a killer.
-- Geothermal Shallows! Just south of the FFR, we could found 2 or 3 bases there and boost our energy gain.
Add to this that these bases would be the closest from the Data Angels continent and their importance is clearly showing.

So, let's plan for 2171 production!

	15-05-2005 22:24									#21
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quote: Originally posted by vishniac Some cities will need new build orders on turn 2171: -South Craterwest, but it was said we'll instabuild The Planetary Datalinks there (yes?). -

I thought we'd agreed that Santiago Citadel was the site of the PDL - that's where I set up the 4 crawlers for:

	15-05-2005 22:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by vishniac So, let's plan for 2171 production!

I hope I'll be able to respond more extensively later, but now some quick advertizing : if you like to plan for 2171 production and even see what we could do the turn beyond that, you can play ahead with the ACDG3 Simulator, always available for download in the Factional Datalinks, and just now updated to the MY 2170 endsave. The other factions aren't reflected well (meaning commerce income won't be correct), but Sparta itself and the University are almost completely correct.

	15-05-2005 22:54									#23
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Thanks, I'll play now.
But I'm sure to get carried away by the game without planning

	15-05-2005 23:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by vishniac Do we have any offensive desires or planning yet, or shall we wait for an opportunity? The answers will determine the build options.

How about the PK's as a traget of opportunity?

They have some juicy assets

• 2 AA's for instatechs
  
• 4 colony pods that we could subvert for our own pop growth
  
• a lightly defended HQ with some saleable assets (Command Center and Perim Defence)

	15-05-2005 23:54									#25
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Wrong thread, Googlie.

He did break the Pact, so I guess he is indeed asking for it. Plus, there would be the nice benefit of getting comfortably close to the Angels... But I would like to see what Yang does first—at least the next 2-3 turns. If he moves against us, we will need all available assets there. Once we are sure the Hive is contained, we can think about Lal.

	16-05-2005 00:03									#26
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well - I'm responding to vishniac's earlier post here (hence my quote)

	16-05-2005 21:40									#27
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Hmmm, yes I like this idea. We have plenty of planes not doing too much, and those PK:s are busy giving away techs to rogue human factions anyway, let's teach them a lesson Also note that they have 2 AA:s which we can steal liberate.

	17-05-2005 08:14									#28
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does 1 Alien artifact autofinishs a SP when you cash it in or does it just contribut an arbitraty number of mineral points to the SP?

	17-05-2005 09:42									#29
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It cashes in for 50 minerals, which is 1/4 of the early SP's (Command Nexus, Empath Guild, HGP. Merchant Exchange and Weather Paradigm)

But we'd rather use them for tech advances than SP building - we get a decent number of completion podpops that give us our "Gin Freighters" - they're worth much more in mineral value for an SP than AA's

	17-05-2005 14:28									#30
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btw threadjack i think and attack on lal would be a great idea...maybe start seriously planning it?