05-01-2005 17:14									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think for my money if Quins did finish bottom that English Rugby Premiership would find some technicality on which Bristol could not come up from the lower division. It’s shameful but it’s regrettably been done before (Leeds are in the top flight only because Rotherham were denied promotion for 02/03 – strangely Bath were bottom until literally almost the last day of the season).

I remember the Rotheram stink. But isn't there a fundamental problem with the relegation system? The teams coming up aren't good enough. A bit like s***** over there. With some exceptions, teams that get promoted to the top level tend to sink straight back down again the next season. The second level needs to lift its standard. But then that needs money, doesn't it.

quote: It’s Patty Howard I think – he has them playing fifteen man rugby with conviction even in situations where sticking it up the jersey is better warranted.

Hopefully he's fining them if the notion of kicking the thing even crosses their mind. Thus the dill who tried the chip kick should have lost his wages.

quote: It’s a terrific combination. I was hugely sceptical about Eddie playing two natural opensides but I would say it is paying off.

Yes, well, Eddie has settled for limited lineout options in favour of the havoc the pair of them can wreak around the ground. That's why Eddie is so keen on the kid Hoiles who came off the bench against you. He's a #8 and a born jumper. I think he's too light yet for a Test #8, but he will develop.

quote: What bothers me most with the Lions right now is I cannot see a single Scot figuring on merit – unless Simon Taylor can get fit and into form in time (he’s a classy number 8 – went home early last time after getting injured in Perth).

I didn't see a single Scotsman who'd threaten for a spot. It will be England, Ireland and a couple of Taffys.

I've been watching the current Test in South Africa with interest. Trescothic has been sprung with no footwork. And I think it's Vaughan's problem these days, too. Shuffling across the stumps rather than going forward or back.

	06-01-2005 15:00									#212
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quote: The second level needs to lift its standard. But then that needs money, doesn't it.

Spot on. And it’s a problem that I cannot see a solution to. The club game is more popular here than it has ever been – but even the top division has to be financially propped up by TV money for the national side. There is only so much to go around. What happens at the moment is that promoted clubs tend to have backers – sugar daddies if you will – that prop them up until they get bored. Cecil Duckworth is bank rolling Worcester (their ground holds around 8000 people so gate receipts and commercial activities alone would never support them).

quote: Thus the dill who tried the chip kick should have lost his wages.

Daryl Gibson. What can you expect from a former AB.

quote: That's why Eddie is so keen on the kid Hoiles who came off the bench against you

I was too busy wondering how we failed to win the game to take too much notice. After Cueto scored we should have finished you off. Two years ago we would have I think. Wonder what has changed? Almost everything?

By the way have you heard that Finnegan has been linked with Rob Andrew’s Newcastle?

Or that the line up being touted for England’s six nations midfield is Ellis-Hodgson-Wilko-Smith. It’s an interesting combination and I would mind seeing it played. Smith’s time finally seems to have arrived if he can just keep fit another four weeks.

Oh and Tindall’s agent is playing hard ball with Bath’s owner top try and leverage a better contract for Tinders. It will backfire – Brownsword is not known for being pushed around.

quote: I didn't see a single Scotsman who'd threaten for a spot

Taylor could push Corry if, and only if, he plays in the 6N. Beyond that I would tend to agree. Though I might chance the winger Lamont – looks like he could thrive in a quality side given the chance.

I wondered if you were watching the cricket. The England first innings was what I could only describe as Cavalier. I wondered if over confidence would become a problem for them. And dead right about Vaughan – the footwork has become appalling. Even worse it looks like Freddie Flintoff is out of the rest of the tour.

Their best chance of batting out the last day was Thorpey – so nice surpise really to see him go early on slashing at a wide ball from Pollock.

The real problem here is that South Africa are a poor bowling side – it has been poor batting from us causing the problems. Still as I write we only need another 306 for victory with four wickets left – with those demon batsmen Giles and Jones at the crease. Easy.

	06-01-2005 20:18									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Spot on. And it’s a problem that I cannot see a solution to. The club game is more popular here than it has ever been – but even the top division has to be financially propped up by TV money for the national side. There is only so much to go around. What happens at the moment is that promoted clubs tend to have backers – sugar daddies if you will – that prop them up until they get bored. Cecil Duckworth is bank rolling Worcester (their ground holds around 8000 people so gate receipts and commercial activities alone would never support them).

It's the utterly predictable end result of "professionalism" in sport. Sports such as club rugby - and AFL here - that were essentially tribal, suburban contests have been caught up and swept along with ever-inflating costs. Come the day when outgoings can't be substantially met by bona fide incomings, when sugar daddies and TV rights and sponsorship make up most of the incomings, the whole structure is vulnerable. Which lower s***** league over there was stuffed a couple of years ago when the TV company went belly up? S12 is entirely dependent on Murdoch money. There are no foundations anymore. So much sport is built on sand. It's the times. Unfortunately. Sooner or later it will all come crashing down.

But back to the point. There isn't a solution to the problem of the promoted team struggling. The second division will never - sugar daddies aside - lift its standard because it's what it is - second division. It won't earn the big sponsorships or the TV rights. Because, they would argue, who wants to watch second division? Second division - club rugby over there, the lower level of AFL here - will remain a throwback to the old days - the good old days, which, frankly, I preferred - of supporter strength, fund-raisers, pie nights, et al. And completely unprepared to contest against fully-sponsored, fully-professional organisations in the higher division.

They might as well do away with the promotion/relegation system in your club rugby. It's token democracy.

quote: I was too busy wondering how we failed to win the game to take too much notice. After Cueto scored we should have finished you off. Two years ago we would have I think. Wonder what has changed? Almost everything?

No. Just You Know Who.

quote: By the way have you heard that Finnegan has been linked with Rob Andrew’s Newcastle?

Mmmm. Hadn't heard that. There was talk a year or so ago of him going to Ireland to play in front of his 1,200,000 rellies over there.

quote: Or that the line up being touted for England’s six nations midfield is Ellis-Hodgson-Wilko-Smith.

Damn sight better than the incumbents. Although Hodgson is an incumbent and I'm not sure about him anyway.

quote: Oh and Tindall’s agent is playing hard ball with Bath’s owner top try and leverage a better contract for Tinders. It will backfire – Brownsword is not known for being pushed around.

See the above tirade about professionalism in sport.

quote: I wondered if you were watching the cricket. The England first innings was what I could only describe as Cavalier. I wondered if over confidence would become a problem for them. And dead right about Vaughan – the footwork has become appalling. Even worse it looks like Freddie Flintoff is out of the rest of the tour. Their best chance of batting out the last day was Thorpey – so nice surpise really to see him go early on slashing at a wide ball from Pollock. The real problem here is that South Africa are a poor bowling side – it has been poor batting from us causing the problems. Still as I write we only need another 306 for victory with four wickets left – with those demon batsmen Giles and Jones at the crease. Easy.

I didn't see any of today. I turned it on late and the game was all over. The Boks bowled very well yesterday, England's batting technique and concentration let them down. The day before, England bowled badly and the Boks batted well. Frankly, England could win the next Test. I think both teams have fundamental flaws and whichever one gets it close enough to right on a given day will clean up.

The Sky commentators are still talking up Kay. He topped the aggregates in county cricket last year. Big fizz. He averaged 60 in all Tests last year. Against whom?

The England bowlers just aren't accurate enough. A player like Kallis - a fine batsman - knows he will get a couple of half volleys or wide, short balls every over. He just sweats on them. Top class batsmen will do that. Lesser batsmen don't have the patience and bowlers can end up with inflated figures. Equally, the Boks can bowl just as badly.

And as for Vaughan's tactics early in the match - seven fieldsmen on the off side and Flintoff bowling two feet outside the off stump when Kallis was only in the 40s - well, I say no more.

	07-01-2005 06:08									#214
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'll email you some Italian snow next Christmas.

I missed the e there for a minute.
Although sending real snow through the post would be rather amusing actually.

quote: Originally posted by Havak Daryl Gibson. What can you expect from a former AB.

Hullo Havak.



Incidentally it looks as though Leeds is going to have another AB next season. Marshall's going to have a stint of a couple of years there after his next season with the crusaders.

http://www.planetrugby.com/Teams/Ne...ory_40840.shtml

	07-01-2005 07:17									#215
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And Carlos will be next. Bet your boots.

	07-01-2005 07:42									#216
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Nah. He'll be off to a club that really needs propping up.
Wonder if any English club in particular has been in the market lately?

[Edit: ]

	07-01-2005 15:42									#217
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quote: Which lower s***** league over there was stuffed a couple of years ago when the TV company went belly up?

The entire Football League – all three divisions below the Premiership – suddenly had a huge revenue stream disappear. Soccer is of course the perfect example of a Professional Sport built on foundation of sand – and it also relies on Murdoch money in the UK. What other business could literally pay 100% of turnover straight into the pocket of it’s employees. Is kicking a Kissball about really worth £100K a week? Is an average player at a struggling Division one club worth 20K a week? Is anyone illiterate worth that?

quote: the good old days, which, frankly, I preferred - of supporter strength, fund-raisers, pie nights, et al.

I understand entirely - I take my fix of this at my local club these days rather than Tigers. I wouldn’t give up the great times Tigers have given me (in Paris and Cardiff for example) since they went fully Pro but something was definitely lost at the club when they did. The only saving grace is that I think they retained more of the ‘club spirit’ than any other top franchise did – and that is mainly because we had no sugar daddy come in.

quote: They might as well do away with the promotion/relegation system in your club rugby. It's token democracy.

I think it will happen. It will not be popular amongst fans though. It’s different to S12 where a limited number of franchises were deliberately created – our league grew out of existing teams and there are some big old names in our second flight that would be denied top-level rugby forever if we ring fence the Premiership. It will not sit well with the fans at all.

quote: There was talk a year or so ago of him going to Ireland to play in front of his 1,200,000 rellies over there.

The Irish Union is a little short of cash – they might not be able to afford him at any Province right now.

quote: Damn sight better than the incumbents. Although Hodgson is an incumbent and I'm not sure about him anyway.

I like the idea of Charlie with Ellis and Wilko either side much more than with Gomers and Greenwood. His less physical style can hide between those two gung ho tacklers?

quote: The Sky commentators are still talking up Kay

Robert Key?

He still looks overweight to me for a test batsman. He charged down the wicket in the first innings and got stumped. Muppet. However in his defence Butcher dropped out just before the toss and there haven’t been any warm up games so Key had not played much cricket since September before this test. Stupid schedule for this tour I think.

quote: The England bowlers just aren't accurate enough

The strange thing is that both Harmison and Jones are normally much more accurate than this tour has shown. Harmison seems particularly out of sorts – always blowing like a whale as if he is exhausted. I also wonder if that injury in Aus has fundamentally changed Jones?

As for batting – Harmison (number 11 – average below 10) top scored with 42 in the second innings. The top order need their arse kicking!

quote: And as for Vaughan's tactics early in the match

The acid test of a skipper is losing and coming back better – Vaughan has faced little of that challenge so far. Lets see if he learns from it. he needs to or next summer will be very predictable.

quote: Hullo Havak.

All right Ravagon?

Actually Daryl has been great for us since he replaced Tugboat. He has certainly helped bring Smith on into very realistic England contention. He just has no kicking game whatsoever and I wish he would realise it. Finbar will I am sure confirm that the attempted chip was suicidal.

I wondered if you lads had seen the news about Marshall. And I am sure Spencer will be up here soon too. The thing is I cannot see it being Tigers for him now – with Goode and Broadfoot in situ and VD Westhuyzen apparently resigned from next season there really isn’t room for him anymore. He missed the boat and may therefore end up in a black hole like Sarcens or Saints.

	07-01-2005 19:16									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The entire Football League – all three divisions below the Premiership – suddenly had a huge revenue stream disappear. Soccer is of course the perfect example of a Professional Sport built on foundation of sand – and it also relies on Murdoch money in the UK. What other business could literally pay 100% of turnover straight into the pocket of it’s employees. Is kicking a Kissball about really worth £100K a week? Is an average player at a struggling Division one club worth 20K a week? Is anyone illiterate worth that?

Anyone who thinks it can sustain itself is kidding themselves. Anyone who thought the dot.com boom would sustain was kidding themselves. But a lot of people did.

quote: The only saving grace is that I think they retained more of the ‘club spirit’ than any other top franchise did – and that is mainly because we had no sugar daddy come in.

Yes, there are still a few clubs that retain the spirit. The club I support in the AFL - the suburb where I was born in Melbourne - is the same. They were nearly forced to merge with another team a couple of years ago for "rationalisation" purposes. There was a massive groundswell of supporter power against the merger and it was defeated. But those sorts of things are few and far between these days.

quote: I think it will happen. It will not be popular amongst fans though. It’s different to S12 where a limited number of franchises were deliberately created – our league grew out of existing teams and there are some big old names in our second flight that would be denied top-level rugby forever if we ring fence the Premiership. It will not sit well with the fans at all.

I'm sure it wouldn't, but that's the problem when you fundamentally change the nature of the competition. It's now money-driven rather than tribal. With some teams managing to maintain the tribal qualities. (See above) AFL teams here were merged and relocated. The big names in your second flight might snaffle a spot in the top division, but will they survive? Is their joy in dropping straight back down again? Either the budgets of the top level teams are cut, or the authorities have, somehow, to work to lift the standard of the second division. I can't see either happening. So the same old farce will continue.

quote: I like the idea of Charlie with Ellis and Wilko either side much more than with Gomers and Greenwood. His less physical style can hide between those two gung ho tacklers?

Fair point. Until he's targeted.

quote: Robert Key? He still looks overweight to me for a test batsman. He charged down the wicket in the first innings and got stumped. Muppet. However in his defence Butcher dropped out just before the toss and there haven’t been any warm up games so Key had not played much cricket since September before this test. Stupid schedule for this tour I think.

Yes, sorry. Key. The Sky commentators were making the point about his lack of cricket. Regardless, I don't think he's Test quality. I think he made one good score out here last time. He looks like a solid - in every sense of the word - county player. You can get away with a bit less batting talent in Test cricket if you're a dogged fighter, but he's not.

quote: The strange thing is that both Harmison and Jones are normally much more accurate than this tour has shown. Harmison seems particularly out of sorts – always blowing like a whale as if he is exhausted. I also wonder if that injury in Aus has fundamentally changed Jones?

Harmison is bowling much too short. On those Bok pitches, which are like the pitches here, short-pitched bowling is meaningless unless you're a Jeff Thompson pitching just short of a length and climbing at the batsman's head. On firm wickets, the ball sails way over the stumps. Ian Botham made a rare sensible comment about Harmison: he has to aim to hit the top of the off stump instead of sending the ball three feet over the top of the off stump. Jones was underbowled. He only got a turn after Harmison, Hoggard and Giles. He looked more dangerous than either Harmison or Hoggard. Quick enough, if not quite as quick as he was out here before his injury, and, more importantly, fairly accurate. He's worth keeping going.

quote: As for batting – Harmison (number 11 – average below 10) top scored with 42 in the second innings. The top order need their arse kicking!

That will sometimes happen. Glenn McGrath got 50 this summer. So did Jason Gillespie. But your top order is dodgy. Still, as I said yesterday, it could all turn around in the next match. The Boks are just as capable of crap cricket. The difference between the teams at the moment is Kallis.

quote: Actually Daryl has been great for us since he replaced Tugboat. He has certainly helped bring Smith on into very realistic England contention. He just has no kicking game whatsoever and I wish he would realise it. Finbar will I am sure confirm that the attempted chip was suicidal.

I believe that the term d*ckhead sums it up appropriately.

quote: I wondered if you lads had seen the news about Marshall. And I am sure Spencer will be up here soon too. The thing is I cannot see it being Tigers for him now – with Goode and Broadfoot in situ and VD Westhuyzen apparently resigned from next season there really isn’t room for him anymore. He missed the boat and may therefore end up in a black hole like Sarcens or Saints.

You can bet on it. Kiwi S12 wages are on the low side. If you're not playing for the ABs, you're not earning. That was why Caucau headed for Europe. Where did he end up eventually? I thought he was heading for France.

	07-01-2005 20:31									#219
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quote: Originally posted by finbar You can bet on it. Kiwi S12 wages are on the low side. If you're not playing for the ABs, you're not earning. That was why Caucau headed for Europe. Where did he end up eventually? I thought he was heading for France.

He is currently playing for the Sporting Union Agenais, a hundred or so kilometers away from Toulouse, he already played once at Ernest Wallon against the Stade Toulousain. He is rather an impressive player and has been looked after like boiling water, and something like quenched, by Toulouse's defenders.

	08-01-2005 04:32									#220
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A-ha. That's where he is. Yes, he's impressive. Terrifyingly quick and good skills. If he changes his first name to Pierre, he might earn a bleu jersey.

	09-01-2005 17:19									#221
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Hey Tamerlin. I was watching a documentary on the history of English. After William of Normandy conquered England, 10,000 French words flooded into the English language. Take them back!

	10-01-2005 04:21									#222
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And now I notice that J. Wilkinson has injured himself again. I smell a rat. The lad is shirking.

EDIT. I also just noticed this result:

Biarritz 21 -d- Leicester 17

Leicester didn't score in the first half, and only a try in injury time saw them pick up a bonus point. Is this the same team I saw against Wasps?

Last edited by finbar on 10-01-2005 at 04:26

	10-01-2005 14:14									#223
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Not even close. The first half was I think the worst rugby I have seen from them in several years. I don’t know what caused it but hands were terrible, positioning way off and they persisted in a kicking game plan of kicking it in field to the BO backs – but Brusque was handling everything and booming it back with interest. You cannot expect to play like they did for that 40 and still win the game.

So the club has effectively blown Europe after already fairly deliberately throwing the domestic cup. Now wonder the committee looked so unhapoy after teh game - it's a huge blow to the clubs season. Only a mathematical miracle can see us progress now. And it could have been so different – the second half was a different game with Biarritz entering our half only on four occasions – and never into our 22 (they still scored a penalty sadly due to our indiscipline). Territory and possession must have been 90% Tigers. Biarritz are a class side – powerful and organised - but it’s a team we really should have beaten tidily.

I cannot blame the referee for Tigers failure to get their heads in gear – but it was a remarkable refereeing performance never the less. Two disallowed tries in the second half one of which, on repeated viewing, I am absolutely certain was good. He had a real problem with educating BO as to the various offside lines for all aspects of play – I was gobsmacked in the second half when the big dumb farm boy joined a maul from behind OUR back foot and nothing was done and their back line was up so quick all the time I thought they were Kiwis - hullo Ravagon But there was a game breaking decision before half time. Tigers get a penalty in the BO 22 and kick to the corner right in front of me. It’s a good 2-3 metres in field. The BO winger says it has gone dead – and the moronic referee agrees! Worst decision in a top class game (since the Luger try?). If we had caught and drove from there the game was going to be ours despite the lead they had.

For our opponents Betsen continues to impress me – he made a crunching last ditch tackle on Ollie Smith that saved a try. Brusque has one hell of a boot on him. The biggest surprise was Harinordoquy – he looks a pale shadow of the bullocking young lad that broke onto the international scene two years ago. Maybe it was just a blip?

For us Jonno was throwing himself around in a one man effort to turn things around. He will simply be totally irreplaceable. Backy spent the entire second half wrapped around the ball and Ellis just gets better and better - but his dark side continues with another yellow for raising an elbow. Still his try gives that slim mathematical chance and for that one has to be grateful.

So here I am having to support Wasps against Biarritz next weekend - and pray neither gets a bonus point wth Wasps winning. Did I say slim? Anorexic would seem more like it.

And Wilko really has injured his knee. He will never wear the rose again at this rate!

Anyway I am going away to sulk now…

	10-01-2005 16:51									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Havak So here I am having to support Wasps against Biarritz next weekend -

Chickens come home to roost!

Damn cheap Greek-Canadian software that won't let me fill the post with s

quote: Anyway I am going away to sulk now…

See above!

	10-01-2005 18:13									#225
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I am aware of the irony in having to support them believe me.

	11-01-2005 04:14									#226
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I can imagine the Wasps team meeting prior to the match.

Nose: "Okay, lads, that mongrel Havak who gives us such a hard time is counting on us to win. What are we going to do?

Team: (chorus) Throw the match!

	11-01-2005 14:26									#227
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They might do that to spite me - but the delicious thing is that if they win with a bonus point they go through - so they have to try their hardest, and I then have to hope they score just three tries in winning.

Realistically Biarritz have to be favourites to progress - which is a shame as too many French sides look set to go through and nobody wants that do they?

I have just started reading Sir Clive's modest autobio "Winning" (I was bought it for Xmas). Very early impressions (from the acknowledgments) is that everything we have conjectured about his ego and personality is spot on.

Last edited by Havak on 11-01-2005 at 16:53

	11-01-2005 18:40									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Havak They might do that to spite me - but the delicious thing is that if they win with a bonus point they go through - so they have to try their hardest, and I then have to hope they score just three tries in winning.

What's the bonus point prerequisite? Same as S12? Point for four tries, point for finishing within seven?

quote: Realistically Biarritz have to be favourites to progress - which is a shame as too many French sides look set to go through and nobody wants that do they?

You mean the French International Club XVs?

quote: I have just started reading Sir Clive's modest autobio "Winning" (I was bought it for Xmas). Very early impressions (from the acknowledgments) is that everything we have conjectured about his ego and personality is spot on.

No need for the parentheses reassuring that you didn't willingly put money in the d*ckhead's pocket. I might wait till it's remaindered in the specials bin for $0.25. In fact, frankly, I can probably do without it. I was given Peter Roebuck's autobiography for Christmas. And I'd willingly have bought it myself if I hadn't mentioned it to Mrs finbar as my preferred option for a present. Former Somerset captain, mortal enemy of I. Botham, caught up in an unfortunate "assault" matter after smacking boys' bottoms with a cricket bat, wonderful writer and especially on cricket. Fascinating individual. It's called "Sometimes I Forgot To Laugh". Terrific title, its appropriateness becomes clear through the book. Very well worth reading.

	11-01-2005 21:33									#229
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Yes the bonus points work the same as S12 (and more latterly the Premiership in England).

Biarritz are a remarkably French side. There are tourists but it’s not as noticeable as with Stade Francais, USAP or certain other sides mentioned in this thread from time to time – who sign Welshmen.

Cue barrage?

I’ll make a note of Roebucks book and keep my eye out. You must read Woodwards – it’s is a very good look inside his head - what other rugby coach would devote an early chapter to why he loved football and came to rugger via accident and a harsh anti-kissball boarding school?

Andy Robinson announced the 2005 England senior and Academy sides today. And by god he got it wrong IMHO. It’s negative and backward looking as far as I am concerned. I’m too angry to deconstruct it in detail right now but I will give this taster – Dawson back in and Deacon/Smith only in the Academy. Fortunately Ellis makes the senior squad so Dawson and Gomers are just marking time for me.

Smith in the Academy, Noon in the senior squad? Vyvyan in the senior squad, Forrester in the Academy? Borthwick in the senior squad, Deacon in the Academy. Utter Madness! There are some positives but I’ll save those for tomorrow.

	12-01-2005 04:07									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yes the bonus points work the same as S12 (and more latterly the Premiership in England). Biarritz are a remarkably French side. There are tourists but it’s not as noticeable as with Stade Francais, USAP or certain other sides mentioned in this thread from time to time – who sign Welshmen.

I've taken to calling that particular team Cardiff, and calling its #1 supporter, who posts here from time to time, Richard Burton.

quote: Cue barrage?

You'll cop one. I won't.

quote: I’ll make a note of Roebucks book and keep my eye out. You must read Woodwards – it’s is a very good look inside his head - what other rugby coach would devote an early chapter to why he loved football and came to rugger via accident and a harsh anti-kissball boarding school?

Presumably, when he takes up his s***** coaching career, he'll look for a team containing someone akin to J**** who will carry the team and the coach on his back and make them both look better than they really are.

quote: Andy Robinson announced the 2005 England senior and Academy sides today. And by god he got it wrong IMHO. It’s negative and backward looking as far as I am concerned. I’m too angry to deconstruct it in detail right now but I will give this taster – Dawson back in and Deacon/Smith only in the Academy. Fortunately Ellis makes the senior squad so Dawson and Gomers are just marking time for me. Smith in the Academy, Noon in the senior squad? Vyvyan in the senior squad, Forrester in the Academy? Borthwick in the senior squad, Deacon in the Academy. Utter Madness! There are some positives but I’ll save those for tomorrow.

I'll check it out. Eddie has announced a 45-strong preliminary Wallaby squad, 13 bigger than the usual. He's casting the net far and wide loking for depth. Absolutely no surprises in the backs, but some names in the forwards that are new to me.

BTW, what does Academy Squad actually mean? Like the Wallaby Train On squad? Sort of back ups?

And on a related matter. Did you ever see that BBC History of Rugby series? I was telling Tamerlin about it at one time. It covers the game's history in GB, France, New Zealand, South Africa and here. It was finally repeated late last week and I taped it. I'm sending the tape to Tamerlin. If you didn't see it, or want to see it again, he could forward it to you. Marvellous series. The story of Welsh rugby is particularly sad.

	12-01-2005 04:41									#231
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Hey Tamerlin. I was watching a documentary on the history of English. After William of Normandy conquered England, 10,000 French words flooded into the English language. Take them back!

I am afraid that they have so montrously distorted them by now that we would not have any use for what we would recover.

Sorry to be absent these days but I am so overworked (believe it or not) that I don't have much time to spend on Apolyton or on computer games.

I should have some time available again in February.

I have heard that the Biarritz Olympique played very well this week-end and that, for once, Dimitri Yachvili has been very good.

	12-01-2005 14:57									#232
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quote: You'll cop one. I won't.

Only because I doubt Richard Burton will mean anything to him.

quote: someone akin to J**** who will carry the team and the coach on his back and make them both look better than they really are.

I suspect he will have to.

quote: BTW, what does Academy Squad actually mean? Like the Wallaby Train On squad? Sort of back ups?

Pretty much that – it tends to be younger players and they get additional coaching. But it is not unheard of for Academy lads to leapfrog seniors or for established seniors to be in it – so yes a backup pool. It gets more complicated when you realise that a three day camp is coming up and that a lot of the seniors named are injured, some are not going to the camp and yet some of the Academy lads are going. Think of it as a probationary squad – or purgatory?

I am really hoping Robinson is not stupid enough to field Henry Paul and Noon in the centres (France will be laughing all the way to the bank and maybe Wales too). He has to play Ollie Smith (probably with Noon initially) or I’m going to lose any lingering hope for his tenure. But then he is persisting with Borthwick too and I can only assume that is because he himself signed him to Bath all those year ago. He just is not up to international rugby.

The good news I suppose is that Brown has made the senior squad and Deacon is firmly in the Academy – I still think these two are England’s next RWC lock combination so I’d like to see him play them earlier rather than later.

Nice to see Forrester in the Academy too (Glaws back rower). He has the pace of Chris Jones but more nounce to go with it. You will note Jones remains in the setup even though he has not figured since the Kiwi’s made him look inept.

Skinner is also one to watch in the Academy as he is Back’s protégé. Been out since October due to shoulder surgery but just coming back for Tigers and certainly full of potential.

Anyway here is the full list (and it’s littered with players currently out injured – e.g. Corry and Wilko). The 43 in the first list are those attending training camp for the 6N.

Squad for Six Nations training:
Backs: Balshaw, Cohen, Cueto, Lewsey, Robinson, Simpson-Daniel, Voyce, Abbott, Noon, Paul, Smith, Tait, Tindall, Barkley, Hodgson, King, Wilkinson, Dawson, Ellis, Gomarsall.
Forwards: Chuter, Thompson, Titterrell, Rowntree, Sheridan, Stevens, Vickery, White, Borthwick, Brown, L Deacon, Grewcock, Kay, Shaw, Beattie, Corry, Forrester, Hazell, Jones, Moody, Vyvyan, J Worsley.

Elite player squad 2004-05
Senior squad

Abbott, Balshaw, Borthwick, A Brown, Chuter, Cohen, Corry, Cueto, Dawson, Ellis, Flatman, Gomarsall, Greening, Greenwood, Grewcock, Hazell, Hill, Hodgson, Kay, King, Lewsey, Moody, Noon, Paul, Robinson, Rowntree, Shaw, Simpson-Daniel, Thompson, Tindall, Titterrell, Vickery, Vyvyan, White, Wilkinson, J Worsley, M Worsley.

Senior national academy
Barkley, Beattie, Christophers, L Deacon, Forrester, C Jones, Palmer, Rees, Sheridan, Skinner, Smith, Stevens, Tait, Voyce.

Sevens squad
Dowson, Haughton, Monye, Roques, P Sanderson.

quote: Did you ever see that BBC History of Rugby series?

I recall you mentioning it before. I have caught some of it but cannot recall if that was before or since you last mentioned it. I saw the history of the Welsh but all that sticks in the mind is that all their very early representative sides were in fact upper class Englishmen based in the province and that the program skirted around the huge problem of racism in selection and closed minds to the Professional era in Wales holding them back.

I seem to recall that the French history was most interesting –how long they had to wait for their first win and the way they used WWII to kill off League in the country – smart lads.

And for Tamerlin’s benefit Biarritz played a cracking 20 mins. We should still have stuffed them quite frankly. The Romanian he mentioned was bullied out the game by Ellis in the second half. Please, please put him in the Blue jersey for twickers! Even Dawson has nothing to fear from him.

	12-01-2005 16:17									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I am afraid that they have so montrously distorted them by now that we would not have any use for what we would recover.

At least they're now spelled properly! As in "gaol" instead of geôle!

quote: Sorry to be absent these days but I am so overworked (believe it or not) that I don't have much time to spend on Apolyton or on computer games.

You're as bad as Havak when he disappers on this time-wasting thing called work. Something with which I am not familiar.

	12-01-2005 16:30									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Only because I doubt Richard Burton will mean anything to him.

He'll wonder why I'm calling him Elizabeth Taylor's husband.

quote: I am really hoping Robinson is not stupid enough to field Henry Paul and Noon in the centres (France will be laughing all the way to the bank and maybe Wales too).

I can't believe Paul is still there!

And what's the difference between the Squad for 6 Nations training and the Elite squad for 2004/5?

quote: I saw the history of the Welsh but all that sticks in the mind is that all their very early representative sides were in fact upper class Englishmen based in the province and that the program skirted around the huge problem of racism in selection and closed minds to the Professional era in Wales holding them back.

Yes, the Welsh started with mainly the Englishmen. The interesting thing, though, was that when the miners, et al, became involved, the class differential that existed in England didn't feature so much in Wales. National pride seemed to override it. And when the depression hit, and the work disappeared, so did Welsh rugby for a long time. I recall from the episode that something like three full sets of capped XVs went elsewhere in search of work.

quote: I seem to recall that the French history was most interesting –how long they had to wait for their first win and the way they used WWII to kill off League in the country – smart lads.

The French is actually the most interesting episode of the lot for the social and political context.

	13-01-2005 13:58									#235
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quote: You're as bad as Havak when he disappers on this time-wasting thing called work. Something with which I am not familiar.

Never had to write through the night to meet a submission deadline then?

quote: And what's the difference between the Squad for 6 Nations training and the Elite squad for 2004/5?

I have been thinking on that one but I honestly don’t know – other than that the latter is slightly larger which makes me think the 6N might set a lower limit on squad numbers than England wanted for their 2005 annual squad?

quote: I recall from the episode that something like three full sets of capped XVs went elsewhere in search of work.

And every single one of them couldn’t get a game with the big English clubs when they did because they were not the ‘right sorts’?

quote: The French is actually the most interesting episode of the lot for the social and political context.

And for proving that they have always been a side that are world beaters Saturday and world chasers Monday.

You should read Clive’s book. I’m not changing my views of the man significantly but some things are thought provoking and I would like your views on Chapter 7 (Antipodean Adventure). It may surprise you that he is full of praise for Aussie rugby and individuals – and an admirer of Rod McQueen in particular. That gets balanced with the fact that he had a day job with Xerox and expresses his consternation with Aussie office culture – where Sales teams didn’t give a stuff that they were not selling for example - and took their birthdays off without taking leave to cover the day. And keep you eyes out for the part where he complains about his unit on Manly beach because the waves kept him awake – he actually pokes fun at himself over that.

You may also enjoy the shambolic insight into the RFU as it turned Professional.

You may also have read that he carries the poem An Indispensable Man in his wallet. I was interested to learn that he does so because it was read at the funeral of his second coach at Tigers and that he felt it was the perfect guideline for life. It doesn’t match what one had surmised about his ego I have to say.

“Sometimes, when you're feeling important,
Sometimes, when your ego's in bloom,
Sometimes, when you take it for granted
You're the best qualified in the room.

Sometimes, when you feel that your going
Would leave an unfilled hole,
Just follow this simple instruction,
and see how it humbles your soul:

Take a bucket and fill it with water,
Put your hand in it up to the wrist,
Pull it out and the hole that's remaining
Is a measure of how you'll be missed.

You may splash all you please when you enter,
You can stir up the water galore,
But stop, and you'll find in a minute
That it looks quite the same as before.

The moral of this quaint example
Is to do just the best that you can;
Be proud of yourself, but remember,
There is no indispensable man.”

	13-01-2005 16:19									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Never had to write through the night to meet a submission deadline then?

Never again if I can help it. I'm trying to consider myself semi-retired. Doing only what I feel like doing.

quote: I have been thinking on that one but I honestly don’t know – other than that the latter is slightly larger which makes me think the 6N might set a lower limit on squad numbers than England wanted for their 2005 annual squad?

That was all I could think of.

quote: And every single one of them couldn’t get a game with the big English clubs when they did because they were not the ‘right sorts’?

Wouldn't be surprised. Hopefully they found work, though, which was the only reason they left Wales.

quote: You should read Clive’s book. I’m not changing my views of the man significantly but some things are thought provoking and I would like your views on Chapter 7 (Antipodean Adventure). It may surprise you that he is full of praise for Aussie rugby and individuals – and an admirer of Rod McQueen in particular.

An admirer of McQueen to the extent that he set up the England structure exactly along the lines that McQueen set up the Wallabies albeit with twice as many back-up staff. McQueen applied business principles. Clive basically copied them.

quote: That gets balanced with the fact that he had a day job with Xerox and expresses his consternation with Aussie office culture – where Sales teams didn’t give a stuff that they were not selling for example - and took their birthdays off without taking leave to cover the day.

What a ****er.

quote: And keep you eyes out for the part where he complains about his unit on Manly beach because the waves kept him awake – he actually pokes fun at himself over that.

I'm with him on that one. Waves drive me insane at night. Mrs finbar loves them. If we ever retire to the beach, she can have a bedroom nearest the waves, I'll have one at the opposite end of the house.

quote: You may also have read that he carries the poem An Indispensable Man in his wallet.

The poem is a nice sentiment. Pity he doesn't live by it.

	14-01-2005 14:13									#237
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quote: Never again if I can help it. I'm trying to consider myself semi-retired. Doing only what I feel like doing.

More power to your elbow I say. I’d love to do the same myself. I must get around to writing that novel that must be hiding somewhere within me.

quote: Hopefully they found work, though, which was the only reason they left Wales.

Ah yes the ‘good old days’. I hope they did but if you are talking the twenties and thirties we are talking no welfare state and men having to beg rich gits for a days work. My own grandfather was once asked at a foundry if he had any pictures on his wall at home – and when he replied yes he did have one was told to go and sell it before coming back another day. That kind of petty vindictiveness and smug superiority was common – and is yet another reason why I detest Conservative thinking and the slavish pursuit of individual wealth.

Sorry – went off on one again.

quote: McQueen applied business principles. Clive basically copied them.

Perhaps so – although he certainly doesn’t acknowledge it. But he does seem to have had some innovative approaches of his own. And god help me but I actually admire him for the stand he took at London Irish in 96 (weird motions at an AGM) – again I would commend you to read the book (there must be thousands of copies outside the Sydney incinerators?).

quote: What a ****er.

Again he learnt from it – understand a culture before you try to manage within it. Which is why he never ever upset Australians again of course.

Office culture is different here – a don’t ‘give a stuff attitude’ will get you dismissed even in low pressure jobs. And you take leave for your birthdays.

quote: If we ever retire to the beach, she can have a bedroom nearest the waves, I'll have one at the opposite end of the house.

But on the bright side Northern Italy has beaches that have very gentle tides in comparison to NSW.

Tigers are panicking about the game in Italy – if the pitch freezes (very likely at this time of year) and the game is called off they only get four points. I think Wells is missing the point – had we beaten BO last weekend it wouldn’t matter. You don’t worry about the stable door when the horse is five miles away.

Did you note this week by the way that Clive is still leaving the door open for Martin to join the Lions tour? Ever hopeful…

In the other game of note England made a good start in Joburg but lost two late wickets on day one (including Thorpey for a duck). I cannot wait to see Strauss against the Aussies as I am keen to see how good he actually is.

	16-01-2005 08:22									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Havak That kind of petty vindictiveness and smug superiority was common – and is yet another reason why I detest Conservative thinking and the slavish pursuit of individual wealth. Sorry – went off on one again.

Feel free. Music to my ears.

quote: Perhaps so – although he certainly doesn’t acknowledge it.

He followed McQueen's model in that he set up a highly structured organisation. The coach is effectively CEO, with various not-quite-but-almost-autonomous departments under him. And progress or otherwise - improvement or otherwise - is charted and analysed. I remember reading the detail of the system once but that's about all I remember. It's quite common now but McQueen was the first to bring it to rugby.

quote: again I would commend you to read the book (there must be thousands of copies outside the Sydney incinerators?).

I'll have a look for it. I'll need something to put me to sleep on the long flight to Italy.

quote: Office culture is different here – a don’t ‘give a stuff attitude’ will get you dismissed even in low pressure jobs. And you take leave for your birthdays.

Ah, but there's often a difference between the perceived "don't give a stuff" attitude and the reality. It's the Australian way to be seen not to be giving a stuff.

quote: Tigers are panicking about the game in Italy – if the pitch freezes (very likely at this time of year) and the game is called off they only get four points. I think Wells is missing the point – had we beaten BO last weekend it wouldn’t matter. You don’t worry about the stable door when the horse is five miles away.

Anyway, you romped home. But Wasps lost. So does that stuff you? Or does your win keep you live?

quote: Did you note this week by the way that Clive is still leaving the door open for Martin to join the Lions tour? Ever hopeful…

He must now be losing hope that Wilkinson, whose leg injury seems to be real for once, will make the tour.

quote: In the other game of note England made a good start in Joburg but lost two late wickets on day one (including Thorpey for a duck). I cannot wait to see Strauss against the Aussies as I am keen to see how good he actually is.

Me too. I've seen a bit of him now. Solid, simple technique, which is useful. His feet don't always work as they should. We'll see.

	16-01-2005 14:26									#239
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Leicester are dong for the Hcup now.
Current results:
Pool 1 Winners - Biarritz Olympique 22 points (20 tries)
Pool 2 Winners - Leinster 26 points (33 tries)
Pool 3 Winners - Toulouse 24 points (21 tries); Runners-up - Northampton Saints 21 points (11 tries)
Pool 4 Winners - Munster - 22 points (12 tries)
Pool 5 Winners - To Be Decided Sunday
Pool 6 Winners - To Be Decided Sunday
I think the Saints are the best second, and the second best will be qualified but Leicester seems out anyway.
Pool 5 should get Newcastle and Perpignan or the Welsh Dragons should they beat Newcastle.
Pool 6 should get the Stade Francais unless Gloucester manages to score 4 tries, and the French no more than 2, and win by more than 7 points if I've understood everything. (Disclaimer: I play hooker).

For me there's a possibility that I'll be spending one week end in Toulouse around the 15th of may to play rugby there as Airbus is preparing a tournament down there and we're invited.

	17-01-2005 04:20									#240
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Leicester did scrape through. They're up against Leinster. People who spell badly might have trouble working out who to support.

You're playing in Toulouse, LDiCesares? If you need a replacement hooker to let you express your skills at #10, I'm volunteering Tamerlin's services.