24-01-2005 16:57									#271
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Well the Irish are at home to both France and England so have every chance of a slam.

I hope we spoil their party however.

Jonno announced this morning that he will retire at the end of this season - the Lomu circus being his last game. I shall therefore raise many a glass to him at the Quins game Saturday.

Thanks Jonno - it's been a joy to watch you over the years.

	24-01-2005 20:39									#272
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I haven't read "Cider House Rules", but I have read "Garp". In fact, ironically, I read it the first time I was in Europe in 1979. Wonderful book, very fine writer. As you have discovered, he has a unique style. And the film adaptation of "Garp" is also pretty good given that Irving is a very difficult author to adapt because so much of his charm is in his style. An author's style is very difficult to transfer to the screen, which is why an author like F. Scott Fitzgerald - "The Great Gatsby", etc - can't be successfully adapted to the screen. You should also, at some stage, read some of F. Scott Fitzgerald's work, "The Great Gatsby" in particular. It's sublime writing.

I have already heard about "The Great Gatsby" and Scott Fitzgerald, maybe after "The World According to Garp"... thanks.

	25-01-2005 02:47									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Thanks Jonno - it's been a joy to watch you over the years.

	25-01-2005 02:49									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I have already heard about "The Great Gatsby" and Scott Fitzgerald, maybe after "The World According to Garp"... thanks.

Scott Fitzgerald managed to combine being a wonderful writer with being a total drunk. Maybe that's where I've gone wrong - I'm not much of a drinker. Although Havak shows promise.

	25-01-2005 15:57									#275
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Plenty of promise as a drinker

Not much as a writer - it requires a level of self discipline I completely lack.

	25-01-2005 16:12									#276
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Yet you have the self-discipline not to spill much?

	25-01-2005 22:19									#277
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This is a matter of survival...

	26-01-2005 02:32									#278
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Get on with your reading.

	26-01-2005 13:43									#279
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Not so much self discipline - more self interest.

It's getting interesting in the build up to the 6N. Wales have lost both first choice flankers (Williams, Charvis)due to injury. France also have a crisis in the back row and Sale's Chabal has been called up - much to Saint Andre's dismay.

The Sales coach has been saying publically that teams that get more five players called up should be allowed to postpone fixtures - he now stands to lose 8 if you include the Scottish and French players he loses. Shame - I honestly can't remember a time when Tigers lost less than 8 senior players on international weekends (it's 11 senior squad members next weekend for example) and Sale never gave a monkies about us.


Robinson says he has a dilemma at scrum half - Dawson and Ellis is great form and Gomersall with a 'sweet pass'. So looks like Ellis on the bench then - as I suspect Robinson lacks the courage to throw him in straight off.

Getting towards the end of that book. It is fascinating I have to say - but the ego shines through very clearly indeed.

And Northampton's Kiwi scrum half Mark Robinson has been banned for 14 weeks after stamping on Leeds hooker Mark Regan in their Powergen loss last weekend. I watched the game and it was a very reckless incident - he literally pumped the pistons on the guys head.

English locks have seen red for far less when playing in NZ and in all honesty Chris White should have red carded him on the spot. Still at least it will reinforce Tamerlin's view of Whitey.

I wonder if White is down to ref Ireland-France?

	26-01-2005 16:53									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The Sales coach has been saying publically that teams that get more five players called up should be allowed to postpone fixtures - he now stands to lose 8 if you include the Scottish and French players he loses. Shame - I honestly can't remember a time when Tigers lost less than 8 senior players on international weekends (it's 11 senior squad members next weekend for example) and Sale never gave a monkies about us.

Regardless of who is affected, it's an unfair situation. It also doesn't do the country's stocks any good because it only encourages the clubs' pursuit of foreign players.

quote: Robinson says he has a dilemma at scrum half - Dawson and Ellis is great form and Gomersall with a 'sweet pass'. So looks like Ellis on the bench then - as I suspect Robinson lacks the courage to throw him in straight off.

I think Robinson is shaping as a dunderhead. Or worse.

quote: Getting towards the end of that book. It is fascinating I have to say - but the ego shines through very clearly indeed.

I hope you borrowed it from someone. Or stole it from a bookshop.

quote: And Northampton's Kiwi scrum half Mark Robinson has been banned for 14 weeks after stamping on Leeds hooker Mark Regan in their Powergen loss last weekend. I watched the game and it was a very reckless incident - he literally pumped the pistons on the guys head. English locks have seen red for far less when playing in NZ and in all honesty Chris White should have red carded him on the spot.

Did the ref see it? Or one of the linesmen? If so, red card.

	26-01-2005 19:57									#281
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quote: It also doesn't do the country's stocks any good because it only encourages the clubs' pursuit of foreign players.

I agree entirely Finbar. It’s totally unfair – and even rather ridiculous that we are forced to play club games on International weekends.

My point though was that Sale never ever joined Tigers in arguing against this until this season when, after a good season last year, more of their players got called up. Previously they kept quiet because they benefited from it big time as they met under strength teams. They should have looked beyond their myopic self interest years ago. I have ZERO sympathy with them. I have more for Bath if that gives you the level we are talking about here.

quote: I think Robinson is shaping as a dunderhead. Or worse.

Woodward: “If he ever take over form me I hope he gets as talented number two as I have had.”

So what should we expect with a ‘Number Two’ coaching? ‘Crappy’ performances?

I kill myself, I really do.

He is of course a former Bath Man so may well prove to be a dunderhead. Little story – back in 95 I think Neil Back called him a ‘has been’ during a match to niggle him and got the reply ‘better than a never has been’. And which one then won everything in the game? With foresight like that he had to end up England coach.

quote: I hope you borrowed it from someone. Or stole it from a bookshop.

Two married friends of mine bought me it for Xmas. Don’t be misled though – they are actually great people.

quote: Did the ref see it? Or one of the linesmen? If so, red card.

IIRC it was seen and a penalty given – the citing officer raised the complaint after the match. To be fair it was at the back of a shambolic ruck – easy for the officials to have not seen the seriousness of the action.

	26-01-2005 23:45									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Havak English locks have seen red for far less when playing in NZ and in all honesty Chris White should have red carded him on the spot. Still at least it will reinforce Tamerlin's view of Whitey. I wonder if White is down to ref Ireland-France?

Is there a referee in the room?

	27-01-2005 03:22									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Havak My point though was that Sale never ever joined Tigers in arguing against this until this season when, after a good season last year, more of their players got called up. Previously they kept quiet because they benefited from it big time as they met under strength teams. They should have looked beyond their myopic self interest years ago. I have ZERO sympathy with them. I have more for Bath if that gives you the level we are talking about here.

I understand your attitude. It's self-interest. Chickens coming home to blah-blah. The only solution is solve the problem. But how long would the domestic season extend if the comp were to be suspended for internationals?

quote: He is of course a former Bath Man so may well prove to be a dunderhead.

He has struck me as cautious and conservative. And an idiot for returning to H. Paul.

quote: Two married friends of mine bought me it for Xmas. Don’t be misled though – they are actually great people.

Hopefully they paid cash. If they used credit card, there will be a record of their purchase, and when they get to the Pearly Gates, they might find it comes back to bite them. Tell them that from me.

quote: IIRC it was seen and a penalty given – the citing officer raised the complaint after the match. To be fair it was at the back of a shambolic ruck – easy for the officials to have not seen the seriousness of the action.

Sounds like the usual c*ck-up. How can the ref see enough stomping to award a penalty but not enough to warrant a red card? Damn NH refs!

	27-01-2005 14:48									#284
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quote: Is there a referee in the room?

Just be grateful it can’t be Alun Lewis (Irish) – I have not seen anyone as bad this season as he has been.

quote: But how long would the domestic season extend if the comp were to be suspended for internationals?

End of June – killing the summer tour and with the new season at the end of August.

But of course teams used to play mid-week fixtures to cram everything in before this current system. Either way leaves player burn out and physical recovery a huge problem.

I dislike the idea but it seems inevitable a two pool top flight will be implemented – with six in each pool and S12 style play offs between the pools. Well it’s either that or just have the top three English and top three French sides go straight into the European QFs and let the minnow nations battle for the last two places.

quote: He has struck me as cautious and conservative. And an idiot for returning to H. Paul.

That seemed to be his way of saying “this is my era now”. And didn’t it work well?

The big test of him is next Tuesday – I shall be carefully watching the centres he names as well as the scrummie as I think he may **** this one up.

quote: Tell them that from me.

I will. Eternal Damnation for buying the Sainted Knights book.

quote: How can the ref see enough stomping to award a penalty but not enough to warrant a red card? Damn NH refs!

It’s a problem with all refs – too many wimp out on red cards. Not Stuart Dickinson though eh? Killed a test match and then two days later the disciplinary panel overturn the card.

Well I have finished the book. It’s an interesting read though I by no means buy into everything he says. I do see eye to eye with him on the Aussie media though – and agree it was ludicrous they branded him the ‘new Jardine’ just because he met pressure with pressure at the first Perth press conference. Can I just say by the way that I have never seen anything wrong with what Jardine did and I am certain that the other way around the Aussies would not have hesitated to do the same thing. The win is everything – Jardine was simply guilty of being a winner ahead of his time – very ‘un-English’.

And you will hate this – right towards the end Clive mentions that SMH front page the day after Sydney and says that it did make him laugh, as he “loves Australia and the Australian people though I’m not sure they feel the same about me”.

He also kept his word and did not do a kiss and tell – no scurrilous rumours about people and you have to draw your own conclusions from what he does not say. It seems clear he does not like Andre Watson as he catalogues very clearly the man’s knack for being involved in tight exciting games with specific decisions discussed. My favourite is our first test in Bokland in 2000 when Joost stuck his hands into a ruck on our line and claimed a try – you could see nothing at all on any camera but the video ref, one Andre Watson, gave it. It makes much more sense now why he let your front row hoodwink him all the time in the RWC final (you tight head faded all the time if you recall – but Watson penalised Woodman every time! Clever Aussie gamesmanship at it’s best).

Okay you won’t bite there I’m sure

You might find this as funny as I did though. The IRB celebration dinner the day after the final the entire squad attended as required. Their reception was muted – the room was full of Aussies who had paid thousands of Aussie dollars expecting a celebration of Wallaby triumph. Clive almost cried for them. All night on big screens all around the room on continuous loop what do you think was played – the Aussies RWC 99 final triumph!!! Now that is funny – but he throws in the serious point that in France in 2007 the hosts would never be so rude as to show the 2003 final certainly if the winners are different .

	27-01-2005 16:52									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I dislike the idea but it seems inevitable a two pool top flight will be implemented – with six in each pool and S12 style play offs between the pools.

It seems to be the only way to overcome the problem. Presumably the pools will switch around each year.

quote: The big test of him is next Tuesday – I shall be carefully watching the centres he names as well as the scrummie as I think he may **** this one up.

Rest assured I'll be watching on Fox Sports!

quote: It’s a problem with all refs – too many wimp out on red cards. Not Stuart Dickinson though eh? Killed a test match and then two days later the disciplinary panel overturn the card.

Gee, the bait starts out stinky and gets even stinkier as the post progresses!

quote: Well I have finished the book. It’s an interesting read though I by no means buy into everything he says. I do see eye to eye with him on the Aussie media though – and agree it was ludicrous they branded him the ‘new Jardine’ just because he met pressure with pressure at the first Perth press conference. Can I just say by the way that I have never seen anything wrong with what Jardine did and I am certain that the other way around the Aussies would not have hesitated to do the same thing. The win is everything – Jardine was simply guilty of being a winner ahead of his time – very ‘un-English’.

Jardine exploited the laws as they stood. Whether it was sporting or not is another matter. And if Australia had thought of it, I'd say the same thing. I didn't see the media calling Clive the new Jardine. It's silly anyway. Jardine wasn't a prat. But Clive revelled in it all anyway.

quote: And you will hate this – right towards the end Clive mentions that SMH front page the day after Sydney and says that it did make him laugh, as he “loves Australia and the Australian people though I’m not sure they feel the same about me”.

The fundamental problem was that a lot of people here thought him a prat. And not the genius he thought he was. He was made to look good by - well, we won't go down that road again. And, these days, a lot of people here think him a quitter.

quote: Okay you won’t bite there I’m sure

Nuh.

quote: Now that is funny – but he throws in the serious point that in France in 2007 the hosts would never be so rude as to show the 2003 final certainly if the winners are different .

No, the French have a different sense of humor. But they'll come up with something, I'm sure.

	27-01-2005 19:22									#286
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quote: Presumably the pools will switch around each year.

I would assume they get drawn annually with a seeding system at work.

quote: Rest assured I'll be watching on Fox Sports!

Some of my crowd are making pessimistic noises about our midfield. They don’t like my ‘throw in the young uns’ approach. I look forward to your thoughts on the game after next weekend then.

All that stinky bait and not even small nibble?

quote: And, these days, a lot of people here think him a quitter.

He is a quitter – although his reasons for doing so are not without some merit. Not much – but some. In essence it was all about the fact our players are not centrally contracted and he couldn’t have them as and when he wanted. He had worked with it for six years but suddenly it became all consuming – the clubs would not budge and rattles flew from Knighted prams. A quitter he is.

But he isn’t a prat – it’s a mistake to think he is. An insensitive dill maybe, and certainly an egotist – but not a prat. Very seldom loses control. Most of what he says is deliberate even when extreme – excepting immediately post game when he has control issues (he confesses that). In that Perth press conference that caused the initial fresh wave of hatred of him in the RWC (daring to go back at Aussie press comments actually at the press conference – what was he thinking!?) he knew what he was doing – he calls it “pressure for pressure”. Whether it was sensible given the rabid nature of the Aussie media at times is debatable – but it was not a prattish wander into a minefield, rather a determined drive through with an armoured division.

And if you think about it he drew 90% of the media flak throughout the tournament. Method in the madness perhaps?

quote: No, the French have a different sense of humor. But they'll come up with something, I'm sure.

Oh it’s funny to me and to the team. Do it to the Aussies at a Twickenham dinner and suddenly I can forsee sense of humour failures all around and diplomatic incidents. Many of your countrymen can ‘give’ – very few can ‘take’ in the way you can.

I have been to a number of games in France – they can be niggly shortly after the game if they lost and briefly cocky if they won (can’t we all – well except we English who are the very soul of discretion of course) – but they are consummate post match hosts. At the worst they will probably play footage of their last Grand Slam – lets just hope they don’t have any from 2005, 2006 or 2007 to show. I guarantee they will not show France-NZ from November 2004!

	27-01-2005 20:13									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I guarantee they will not show France-NZ from November 2004!

What game are you talking about ? Nobody knows when it was played nor where is the Stade de France...

Uh? What? Waterloo? Don't know neither... Why?

	28-01-2005 02:30									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Havak He is a quitter – although his reasons for doing so are not without some merit. Not much – but some. In essence it was all about the fact our players are not centrally contracted and he couldn’t have them as and when he wanted. He had worked with it for six years but suddenly it became all consuming – the clubs would not budge and rattles flew from Knighted prams. A quitter he is.

The contract argument is a smokescreen. I think the reality is that he knew the largely elderly team had once chance at World Cup glory and it got there. That, I have to say, in context, with players like J****, Back, Wilkinson, et al, was the easy part. The hard part - the real challenge, the real test of a coach's mettle - came next. Coaching a team lacking those who carried it. Rebuilding. Copping losses. He got a taste of it in the last SH tour and didn't like it. Suddenly, a passion for s***** emerged. If he'd had any brains, he'd've retired immediately after the WRC.

quote: But he isn’t a prat – it’s a mistake to think he is. An insensitive dill maybe, and certainly an egotist –

You've just defined a prat.

quote: Many of your countrymen can ‘give’ – very few can ‘take’ in the way you can.

I sue anyone who calls me Australian!

quote: I have been to a number of games in France – they can be niggly shortly after the game if they lost and briefly cocky if they won (can’t we all – well except we English who are the very soul of discretion of course) – but they are consummate post match hosts.

Because they're civilised, part of the real world. Unlike the p*icks who populate this sh*thole!

	28-01-2005 14:37									#290
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Okay I’ll concede the prat issue – for me the definition encompasses someone who is ‘stupid’ to a certain extent and I don’t believe Clive is – but the way he conducts himself sometimes can be considered prattish I guess.

quote: I think the reality is that he knew the largely elderly team had once chance at World Cup glory and it got there.

The irony is I think the team by 2007 will have a shot at retaining. They certainly will not go in as favourites but there is some good young talent around and if they get game time now by 2007 it could be a pretty good team. I expect another painful six nations this season as Ireland and France (in non-NZ facing mode) are very strong teams but next season I think we may be back to a real competitive state. Having said that we could triumph this year – and France will not take visiting twickers lightly I can assure you.

Some of the youngsters starting to figure are really exciting – and for once it is not all gnarled forwards coming through – the Taits, Smiths, Ellis and Varndells of English rugger can really play. At the same time there is a new crop of damn good forwards coming through. Let me put it this way – whatever happens you shouldn’t expect the tri-nations to keep walloping England by huge margins – and don’t be surprised if white start winning regularly again (particularly at HQ).

Whether Robinson is the man to take the team forward in the best way I am not at all sure. I would have preferred Melville or even the fallen star Deano.

You have picked Clive’s ‘strengths’ before Finbar – he is an MD who puts infrastructure in place and surrounds himself with talent. Using this system he could succeed in Soccer (the national sports drips money after all). But frankly I don’t care – Soccer can disappear up it’s own jacksy for me – overpaid morons kissing a ball (and each other) for 90 minutes.

The Lions tour is going to be fascinating to see how he conducts himself without a towering skipper on the field marshalling the troops and making it easy for him. BO’D is many things but he has never impressed me as a skipper.

quote: Because they're civilised, part of the real world. Unlike the p*icks who populate this sh*thole!

But that’s what surprised me – away from the actual issue of sport I found your countrymen friendly and welcoming. Get onto the subject of sport and a sea change occurs – normal friendly people suddenly become rabid anti-pom crusaders. And bizarrely they include the Celts under that Pommy blanket in sport! It was a culture shock initially but you quickly get used to it.

Did I tell you about the Hotel bar episode in Sydney? Drinking in a hotel down near Sydney harbour two days before the last test I am talking all friendly like to two Aussies – I innocently praise both Skippers as “the two best skippers in the game”. Their faces instantly go red and I get both barrels – “not yours mate he’s a just a ******* thug”. You can imagine how well that went down with me. I kept my diplomatic cool (it was early in the night) and just told them they were idiots if they truly believed that and clearly knew nothing about rugby before leaving them and going back to my tour party.

But it wasn’t an isolated incident – time and again I encountered people who automatically though “Aussie good player, Pom Bad player”. It was in fact all too obvious that many Wallaby followers are just flag followers and not lovers of the sport itself.

Okay [/rant mode off]

	28-01-2005 16:07									#291
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I sue anyone who calls me Australian!

Damn, he knows my real name and my address...

	28-01-2005 16:59									#292
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Real name? You mean Tamerlin is not your real name?

	28-01-2005 17:35									#293
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Do you mean Havak is your real name?

	28-01-2005 18:00									#294
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Perhaps not.

Martin Johnson isn't it either.

	28-01-2005 19:09									#295
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It must be strange to speak about oneself at the third person.

	28-01-2005 23:01									#296
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So...when does the Super 12 start?

	29-01-2005 03:24									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia So...when does the Super 12 start?

Friday, February 25th!

	29-01-2005 19:57									#298
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A few comments on France 22 players for next saturday:
Front row is unchanged, second mostly the same with Lambolley probably as a replacement. Third row is untried. Harinordoquy will be the most exprerienced at international level. I think we'll miss Betsen.
Delaigue makes his come-back. A big . Really. Of course, he's not exactly young, but he's certainly one of our best fly halves, and the most experienced. Elhorga at full back is also the only one I'm confident enough can replace Brusque. The wingers I'm not sure are the best choice. But then, against Scotland, I'm not sure it'll matter much.
Apparently Florian Fritz would have been selected as a center but he messed in a match against Scotland under 21's last year, so he will not be selected before march. Seeing glimpses of him, I think this one will make a good French center. Tamerlin will probably say the same, considering the club Fritz plays for.
Still, the team may very well beat Scotland, but it will be much harder against England with a back row that's not used to playing together.

	30-01-2005 01:58									#299
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I am really pleased with Yann Delaigue's selection, he is really deserving it and the Stade Toulousain's managers should not have let him go last year, we miss him. The problem is that he will certainly feel limited by Bernard Laporte's game patterns that don't let any freedom to the players. There are great chances that he will not be able to show his great skill because of this and this is a pitty.

Florian Fritz is a really good player and his performance today against Béziers demonstrated it again, if it was needed at all. He has been elected player of December by the French players and the French press.

Stade Toulousain 46 - Association Sportive Béziers Hérault 10

As usual the Stade Toulousain has alternated the good and the ugly though the good prevailed over the bad, the rear lines have shown really good things and this is rather new. Frédéric Michalack played very well along with William Servat, Florian Fritz and Gareth Thomas... among others. Even Jean-Frédéric Dubois (Yann Delaigue's replacement) has played far better than usual though he still has to raise his level. Though valliant, the Bittérois proved limited and did not manage to cope with Toulouse's "heavies" and the light cavalry. The Toulousains still have some work to do as some flaws still need to be erased. The beginning and the end of the game demonstrated that the Stade Toulousain can get disorganised while there is no strong pressure from the opponent. This could be fatal against a stronger team...

	31-01-2005 03:10									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Okay I’ll concede the prat issue – for me the definition encompasses someone who is ‘stupid’ to a certain extent and I don’t believe Clive is – but the way he conducts himself sometimes can be considered prattish I guess.

Stupid doesn't have to mean lacking in intelligence. Plenty of bright people can also be stupid. Clive, for instance.

quote: Some of the youngsters starting to figure are really exciting – and for once it is not all gnarled forwards coming through – the Taits, Smiths, Ellis and Varndells of English rugger can really play. At the same time there is a new crop of damn good forwards coming through.

Good to hear. So let's see some courage and forward-thinking in selection. Do an Eddie and blood a 20 year-old Matt Giteau. Sort out who has promise. Don't revert to proven failures like H. Paul. There's no future in it.

quote: Whether Robinson is the man to take the team forward in the best way I am not at all sure.

The evidence thus far is that he's not.

quote: You have picked Clive’s ‘strengths’ before Finbar – he is an MD who puts infrastructure in place and surrounds himself with talent.

That's the McQueen system. It could only come to rugby when there was enough money to fund it. It's very expensive.

quote: The Lions tour is going to be fascinating to see how he conducts himself without a towering skipper on the field marshalling the troops and making it easy for him. BO’D is many things but he has never impressed me as a skipper.

I don't know BO'D well enough so I'll take your word for it. I think Clive's other problem is going to be that this Lions' squad - unless I've missed something over the last year or so, or unless someone jumps out of the ground - isn't going to be anywhere near the quality of the lot that came here.

quote: But that’s what surprised me – away from the actual issue of sport I found your countrymen friendly and welcoming. Get onto the subject of sport and a sea change occurs – normal friendly people suddenly become rabid anti-pom crusaders. And bizarrely they include the Celts under that Pommy blanket in sport! It was a culture shock initially but you quickly get used to it.

They're jingoistic idiots. The country is full of them. Why do you think I hate this place so much? And, yes, they can be friendly and welcoming, but there's a deep and very nasty, very self-important and selfish vein just beneath the surface.

quote: Did I tell you about the Hotel bar episode in Sydney? Drinking in a hotel down near Sydney harbour two days before the last test I am talking all friendly like to two Aussies – I innocently praise both Skippers as “the two best skippers in the game”. Their faces instantly go red and I get both barrels – “not yours mate he’s a just a ******* thug”. You can imagine how well that went down with me. I kept my diplomatic cool (it was early in the night) and just told them they were idiots if they truly believed that and clearly knew nothing about rugby before leaving them and going back to my tour party.

QED. It all springs from a national inferiority complex. Australians like to think their country is important on the world stage and have constantly to reassure themselves that it is. All of which explains our current Prime Minister's head being so far up the rectums of Bush and Blair.

quote: But it wasn’t an isolated incident – time and again I encountered people who automatically though “Aussie good player, Pom Bad player”. It was in fact all too obvious that many Wallaby followers are just flag followers and not lovers of the sport itself.

See above.