17-11-2004 23:51									#1
	Which Beeline with the Spartans if Any? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok, here are some proposed tech beelines to do with the Spartans. D AP gives us modern weaponry. Bioengineering gives us clean. This has been talked about somewhat. D AP seems the popular one right now. I put in some other options as well. Note that the details of whom researches what remain to be seen.

Doctrine Air Power beeline:
HE Chem (can probably be grabbed from someone else) gives us better armor
then research Synth Fossil Fuels (gives us missle weapons)
then research Doctrine Airpower (gives us planes)

Bioengineering beeline:
Secrets of Human Brain (Spartans have already?)
then research neural grafting gives (bioenhancement center)
then research bioengineering (gives clean reactor)

Last edited by arginine on 17-11-2004 at 23:57

	18-11-2004 00:33									#2
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I voted "Clean Reactor". I know the D:AP beeline is valuable, but we need clean formers and clean infantry to build up a military in order to keep the Spartans (and the Hive) from declaring war on us.
Once the Spartans have D:AP, weŽre doomed. Since we can outtech them, IŽd say we go for clean and then do our own research/techsteals/techtrades.

	18-11-2004 01:34									#3
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D:AP. Clean reactors is a ludicrusly short beeline to co-operate over, we may as well research it ourselves. D:AP otoh, is essentail for our defense.

We're certainly not doomed if the Spartans get D:AP unless they get it before us. If we get it together, then we have nothing to fear, provided we build intercepters in every city. Plus, 1 min/unit/turn is a small price to pay for better armour, better weapons, better relations with other humans, better chassis', etc. etc. etc.

Clean gives us nothing but clean. Not good at all IMHO.

	18-11-2004 08:16									#4
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We have the -1 Support Penalty (-3 with Demo). We will be the faction that supports 0 free units. D AP will benefit the Federation more than us, because it will help in it making conquests. The clean reactor will help us more than the Federation, because we have a lower support rating.

Both beelines are about 2 techs long, at least for the Spartans

Also, no faction has missile weapons yet. Few factions probably have HE Chem now. When someone gets missle weapons, I will be more active.

A worst possible case scenario would be all the other human factions teaming up to leapfrog into D AP. I don't know how likely that is.

	18-11-2004 08:37									#5
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just incase you guys followed that sugestion earllyer that all votes must be revealed, I agree with MICHA clean reactors for all

	18-11-2004 10:36									#6
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DAP. In MP games where I got a lot of SP's, other players often cooperated toward DAP or MMI to attack me. The Angels and Gaians would be foolish to try to out-build us. They will surely attack us. We must be prepared.

We already have a big mineral advantage because of PTS. Clean would only be a modest part of maintaining that advantage. Building an extra crawler can make up for a support penalty. No amount of crawlers or clean formers can fight off bombers!

	18-11-2004 11:34									#7
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D: AP. Since we know the Spartans near us and they are cooperating with others, they are actually to be feared, technologically. Same goes in an lesser extent for the Hive, being superior for several turns and therefore still ahead of us on the "economies of scale curve".

SFF on the way is nearly equally valuable, the best weapon for quite a time, until Chaos (8) and/or Fusion (10) arrives - depending on the beeline and/or trades.

Apart from that, I support the crawler == support approach. Everything we need in long-term is 10-15+ minerals per base and lots of energy to rush stuff after a few turns.

	18-11-2004 11:37									#8
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The CTO likes his clean formers.

-- CTO #endgame

	18-11-2004 12:09									#9
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Hmm... The Vets really prefer D AP. I really would like Clean now. The Spartans will be slower researchers, especially if they pile up on techs.

I guess we could push our own research and tech acquision for clean, while we move our D AP research along at the slower pace of the Spartans. Maybe we could arrange it so the Spartans research synth fossil fuels, then we research D AP. Hopefully, by the time the Spartans finish researching Synth Fossil Fuels, we will have bioengineering. Our next tech could then even be MMI (Hello Cyborg Factory!).

I guess I will support D AP, provided we independently push for the Clean Reactor, and if possible arrange the deal so we will have enough time to grab bioengineering before we do reserach for the Spartans. We will want to SotB ASAP in that case.

Last edited by arginine on 18-11-2004 at 12:18

	18-11-2004 15:42									#10
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I agree with arginine; If we managed to grab Clean Reactors before we research D:AP together with the Spartans, all parties would be satisfied.
However, I still fear that the Spartans will use SFF against us instead of trading it to us.

	18-11-2004 16:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by arginine We have the -1 Support Penalty (-3 with Demo). We will be the faction that supports 0 free units. D AP will benefit the Federation more than us, because it will help in it making conquests. The clean reactor will help us more than the Federation, because we have a lower support rating.

Yep, -3 support bites. That's why we build more crawlers in a min focused base or two and crawl some more mins. It's a tiny thing if you focus the penalty. Clean would help us more than the spartans, granted, but there's a good chance it would help the Gaians or angels more.

It's worth mentioning that if those extra crawlers are getting picked off by bombers then they're worth squat. A 4-1-10 is 2 rows, and makes a perfect suicide machine to cause riots by destroying lone scouts in bases, or taking out crawlers and formers then crashing. Range of 19 moves. I can assure you that players on the gaian and angel teams have seen this working well before

quote: Both beelines are about 2 techs long, at least for the Spartans Also, no faction has missile weapons yet. Few factions probably have HE Chem now. When someone gets missle weapons, I will be more active.

Since we don't have HEC, it's impossible for us to know who has HEC. The Spartans may have it, they may not (I think they said they'd have an opportunity to get it but not that they had it.) Missile weapons could be one turn away, D:AP 2 turns away (With cooperation).

quote: A worst possible case scenario would be all the other human factions teaming up to leapfrog into D AP. I don't know how likely that is.

We're clearly threatening. It could be very likely. I don't want to take that risk at all if I can help it.

If we do decide Clean () then I'd like to see as many probes in the water as we can build. We have to infiltrate as many factions as we can, steal their tech, at the very least know what we're facing. Right now, we don't know enough. Against an unknown enemy, I'd rather have a supported missile noodle than a clean former (I'll forest your legs off!).

	18-11-2004 22:43									#12
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So in other words, if the other humans grab D AP (especially Sparta) before we do, then launch a surprise attack, we're screwed.

I would like clean as our next internal research target, i.e. we research it while waiting for the Spartan Researchers to finish their tech.

	19-11-2004 01:47									#13
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DAP

We have substantial prizes to protect (PTS + HGP) and we might soon get the PEG.

We need to protect them.

Mead

PS
Please add my vote to DAP. I cannot vote in the poll ( I don't know why).

	19-11-2004 18:33									#14
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DAP, agree with the others

Greetz

	20-11-2004 08:17									#15
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As the spartans have also stated an interest for D:AP, I believe this issue is settled. The new problem is what to research in the mean time without duplicating research that's already out there. The Spartans have SotB right? Hence, that's not an option, so Bioengineering might have to wait a while.

I'd be inclined to go for HEC, and see if the spartans could aquire it for us before we research it.

Another good option might be Doc: Init for the MCC. +2 movement points makes foils as good as cruisers, which makes foil probes wonderful.

Other thoughts?

	21-11-2004 00:48									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Chaunk As the spartans have also stated an interest for D:AP, I believe this issue is settled. The new problem is what to research in the mean time without duplicating research that's already out there. The Spartans have SotB right? Hence, that's not an option, so Bioengineering might have to wait a while. I'd be inclined to go for HEC, and see if the spartans could aquire it for us before we research it. Another good option might be Doc: Init for the MCC. +2 movement points makes foils as good as cruisers, which makes foil probes wonderful. Other thoughts?

I like MCC.


Mead

	21-11-2004 01:11									#17
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The MMC would be handy if we decide to go for lots of sea bases. I'd still like to go for clean first.