01-12-2004 06:27									#31
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BAD NEWS: The Save Is Sick

Accidentally (because of needing to reboot my computer), I have discovered that the save crashes. Loading up the save received from Vox and immediately ending the turn crashes the game.

Kloreep confirmed it crashed on his computer, too.

I am going to try doing things differently during the diplo phase, but I am not holding my breath...

	01-12-2004 06:40									#32
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Whatever I do, the save crashes after hitting the end-turn button (no matter whether I choose "Save Game" or "Continue Game" then).

Legoland calling The Eye, Legoland calling The Eye! We are in trouble...

Let's hope it's the diplo bug we have run into before... unfortunately, I cannot recall what exactly was the problem back then...

	01-12-2004 06:56									#33
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Alright. I have had this finished just when I ran into that crashing problem... anyway, whatever the fix (even if it means replaying the turn), we are going to face the same situation again.

Considering the posts above, I believe our plan for the opening part of this turn should be simple.

1) Use as much artillery as necessary to take at least 1hp off of all landed GoW infantries. There are 42 of them - and we have 62 arty pieces. It will be close and we may even not make it - but even then, hopefully, there should only be few 4/4 GoW infantries left, so I would still proceed... if we have any arty left and the GoW infantry escort is "gone", we save the remaining arty for later (i.e. we do not bombard the tanks).

2) ...irrespective of whether the arty succeeds in fully neutralizing the GoW infantry escort or not, we send in our tanks. Attack from N-NW of Dye Fields (so that the counter-fort covers one dyes tile against bombing). Use only the first attacks, save the second ones, to maintain at least some flexibility.

Odds:

4/4 Lego tank vs. 4/4 GoW tank ... 79.2% to win
3/4 Lego tank vs. 4/4 GoW tank ... 63.7% to win (that's when a GoW artillery hits our tank with its defensive bombardment)
4/4 Lego tank vs. 3/4 GoW infantry ... 81.0% to win
3/4 Lego tank vs. 3/4 GoW infantry ... 66.9% to win
3/4 Lego tank vs. 4/4 GoW marine ... 75.8% to win

2/4 Lego tank vs. 4/4 GoW marine ... 54.4% to win
2/4 Lego tank vs. 3/4 GoW infantry ... 46.2% to win

GoW has 27 arty pieces - so whatever results, after attacking all their tanks (16) and 11 of their infantries, the remaining attacks will not be met with the defensive bombardment.

If we are able to crack through the infantry escort, which I hope for, I would keep attacking as long as we have 3+/x tanks - our 3/x tank (i.e. one that has won his first attack losing only 1hp) has decent 2:1 chances of winning and being promoted to elite against a 3/4 infantry (and theoretically, cool 3:1 against a 4/4 marine - if we get to attack them, that is, which is not likely, though). Well worth trying, methinks.

But I would stop attacking after we run out of 3/x tanks. While 3/x tanks have decent chances of success, with 2/x tanks, it's basically a rouge-noir roulette... I believe we better save those tanks, heal them, and use them again as 4/4 two turns later (we may even live that long! ).

	02-12-2004 01:26									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Your order of attack makes perfect sense. You came up with the same conclusions as I (and probably many others).

I would favor abandoning Tipperary. I think they will not be fooled and will take the city and establish a foot hold on our continent. With the foothold established, they could transport their current stack to the city, and we would be hard pressed to crack the defenses of Tipperary.

Let's build a few more settlers for future fort cities. I think we only have 1 settler, right now.

	02-12-2004 01:40									#35
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I also was wondering about the best use of our obsolete units. They have three basic functions: pillage, cannon fauder, and rush building.

I would like to rush build more tanks, but we are running short of pillaging units. Destroying Tipperary means that we only need 9 pillagers for this turn, which leaves a max. of 8 units for rush building.

Of course, next turn we might need more than 9 pillaging units. So that's the crux of the problem, how many units do we sacrifice for fresh verteran tanks? I think we need to build as many 1-turn tanks/infantry as possible.
If we need more pillagers next turn, than we can deal with it then, such as using 2/4 tanks.

	02-12-2004 02:33									#36
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Agreed with your thoughts on obsolete units, Leo. I will probably suggest to slow the tank production a little bit, using only cities that can build 1-t vet tanks using just a single cavalry/horse disband. Those that need two of them will have to switch to 2t production or use more shortrush gold (to make do with just a single disbanded cavalry).

I haven't posted more detailed production plans yet, since much will depend on the result of our counterattack on the East Coast.

	02-12-2004 02:45									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Don't forget that we can also bomb the GoW stack with out battleships from Jackson. That's two more possible extra hits. Or maybe it'd be better to go out, kill 2 DDs, and go back in Jackson??

This is actually an interesting thought, which hasn't occured to me. It might be a good idea to use our BBs to bomb the stack - either our land-based artillery is unable to shoot through all that infantry and the BBs can make life easier for a tank or two... or we "save" 1-2 arty pieces for duties elsewhere (Abilene could use as many as possible, both for bombardment this turn and for defensive bombardment during the inevitable GS attack).

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Plus, those tanks that attacked once and didn't suffer more than one HP damage, can attack again once that the artillery cover is gone.

Agreed, that's what I was assuming. We first use all first attacks, but if things go well or at least so-so, we keep attacking until we run out of 3/x tanks.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I think we have good chances to completely wipe out the GoW tank brigade and maybe even some infantries. Attacking GoW infantries really depends on how many tanks we want to keep undamaged to strenghten our defences (that if our initial attacks go well, that is).

If we abandon Tipperary, we can safely assume we will need no tanks to bolster our defenses. The infantry numbers posted earlier in this thread are what I consider really safe to hold everything we need to hold.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius We should also keep some workers on dye tiles, just in case. GoW might consider them worth for bombing.

One dye tile covered with Dye Fields, one more dye tile should be covered with the counter-fort. That leaves one dye tile to protect - I would prefer using horses to workers, since even losing that tile for a single turn would mess our luxury situation.

	02-12-2004 03:18									#38
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And one more unconventional thought...

Operation Forest Bump

GS may chose to not attack Abilene this coming turn, but move to where our fort is now (sure we pillage it, but that's not the point).

The problem would be that their überstack would be threatening Q.M. and Abilene at the same time next turn - and that was something we were desperately trying to prevent. If GoW lands all their remaining tanks next turn (and that's what I would do, being them), we will be screwed.

So... I suggest a rather unusual way of keeping Q.M. safe.

Let's plant forest SW of Q.M. and cut the road there

Three workers needed to do that in a single turn. They will be easy grabs if GS sends a tank... but then, such a tank would be an easy kill for us next turn. If GS sends more than a single tank to grab the workers (to be able to rebuild the road), they will have to split their forces, leaving infantry cover behind, exposing their valuable tank forces (we should be able to shoot through those 12 MIs, should they use them to escort the tanks).

What does this accomplish? Well, a forest stops a 2-mover just like a hill does. So even if the GS überstack moved E or NE, Q.M. would remain safe from it.

I'd use the same tactics around Legopolis and Red Bricks, preemptively planting forests SE & 3xSE of Legopolis and E-NE-NE of Red Bricks (though I would leave roads intact there). The lost food is not an issue, and there would be no lost production.

	02-12-2004 04:12									#39
	Inflate your Upload Space

Planting forests is good.

BTW, another use of obselete units that occurs to me is placing them in unoccupied cities like Legopolis that are in range of GoW bombers. I believe this should cut the chances of their destroying pop and buildings in half so long as there are HPed units, as half of the time bombardment targets units.

	02-12-2004 14:41									#40
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hurray for eco-combat!!! thats one to hit the headlines (later)

	02-12-2004 15:11									#41
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Could be something about ents helping us out...

	06-12-2004 08:06									#42
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After checking that the save was really ok again (thanks Trip & Gramphos! - you've got our undying gratitude!), I went on to put a detailed plan of our attack together – to be honest, I welcomed the delay caused by the crashing save this time, since the last few days were truly hectic business-wise for me (and today I've spent the whole afternoon fixing the new computer of my father-in-law-to-be... can anyone say a faulty RAM module? ...).

However, after spending more than an hour putting things together, I realized that I was just repeating what was already posted – no new ideas, just trying to not forget anything... but we did not forget anything, at least as far as I was able to see. Re-reading the plan of attack I had ready to post, I saw it was exactly what we agreed upon.

So... I decided to go ahead and play it, so that we could move on (a lot of other plans actually depended on the outcome of this major attack). I am almost deaf from all that blasting... and getting sleepy, since it’s late here... but here is the battle report (someone be so kind and try replaying it to make sure everything is correct). I am so tired that I am not completely sure if it’s a success or not – probably it is (even got a GL!), but my head is spinning a bit, unable to put any reasonable analysis together. So... just the boring battle log here:

First, a minor change to the already posted turn log – Trip fixed the save Voxes replayed. In this replayed save, Voxes did not send their world map, so I was obviously not able to accept it.

And now the battle:

29) H.B.S. Dye Fields (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
30) H.B.S. Red Bricks (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
31) 53rd Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
32) 54th Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
33) 55th Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
34) 56th Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
35) 57th Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
36) 58th Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
37) 59th Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
38) 60th Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
39) 61st Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
40) 62nd Artillery (in Jackson) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
41) 38th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
42) 39th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
43) 40th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
44) 41st Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
45) 42nd Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
46) 43rd Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
47) 44th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
48) 45th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
49) 46th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
50) 47th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
51) 48th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
52) 49th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
53) 50th Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
54) 51st Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
55) 52nd Artillery (in Dye Fields) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
56) all artillery pieces from Forkmouth moved to N-NW of Dye Fields
57) 1st Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
58) 2nd Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
59) 3rd Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
60) 4th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
61) 5th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
62) 6th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
63) 7th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
64) all artillery pieces from Quanto Mechanico moved to N-NW of Dye Fields
65) 8th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
66) 9th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
67) 10th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
68) 11th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
69) 12th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
70) 13th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
71) 14th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
72) 15th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
73) 16th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
74) 17th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
75) all artillery pieces from the fortress N-N of Abilene moved to N-NW of Dye Fields
76) 18th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
77) 19th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
78) 20th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
79) 21st Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
80) 22nd Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
81) 23rd Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
82) 24th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; missed
83) 25th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
84) 26th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 2hp
85) 27th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
86) 28th Artillery moved from Abilene to N-NW of Dye Fields
87) 28th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp
88) 29th Artillery moved from Abilene to N-NW of Dye Fields
89) 29th Artillery (N-NW of D.F.) bombs 4/4 GoW infantry; hit for 1hp

90) all tanks (1st through 10th) moved from Forkmouth to N-NW of Dye Fields
91) 1st Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 3/4
92) 2nd Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment misses our tank, GoW tank wins with 1/4
93) 3rd Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment misses our tank, our tank wins with 3/4
94) 4th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 3/4 and promotes to 4/5 elite
95) 5th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 2/4
96) 6th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 2/4
97) 7th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment misses our tank, our tank wins with 2/4
98) 8th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 2/4
99) 9th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment misses our tank, our tank wins with 1/4
100) 10th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 1/4
101) all veteran tanks (12th through 20th) moved from Quanto Mechanico to N-NW of Dye Fields
102) 12th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, GoW tank wins with 2/4
103) 13th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, GoW tank wins with 3/4
104) 14th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, GoW tank wins with 1/4
105) 15th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment misses our tank, our tank wins with 4/4
106) 16th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 2/4
107) 17th Tank Division attacks 4/4 GoW tank; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, GoW tank wins with 2/4
108) 18th Tank Division attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment misses our tank, our tank wins with 2/4
109) 19th Tank Division attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, GoW infantry wins with 1/4 and promotes to 2/5 elite
110) 20th Tank Division attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 3/4 and promotes to 4/5 elite
111) all veteran tanks (22nd through 27th and one new one) moved from Abilene to N-NW of Dye Fields
112) 22nd Tank Division attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment misses our tank, our tank wins with 4/4
113) 23rd Tank Division attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 2/4 and promotes to 3/5 elite
114) 24th Tank Division attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, GoW infantry wins with 3/4
115) 25th Tank Division attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 3/4
116) 26th Tank Division attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment misses our tank, our tank wins with 4/4
117) 27th Tank Division attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment misses our tank, our tank wins with 3/4
118) new tank (N-NW of Dye Fields) named 28th Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment misses our tank, our tank wins with 3/4
119) new tank (in Panama) named 29th Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; defensive bombardment hits our tank for 1hp, our tank wins with 2/4
120) new tank (in Kloreepville) named 30th Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 2/4
121) new tank (in Red Bricks) named 31st Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 3/4
122) new tank (in Sharpehaven) named 32nd Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 3/4
123) new tank (in Karina) named 33rd Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 2/4
124) new tank (in Ahhmyfoot) named 34th Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 2/4
125) new tank (in Horsefish) named 35th Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; GoW infantry wins with 2/4
126) new tank (in Logville) named 36th Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 2/4
127) new tank (in Tiberium) named 37th Tank Division, attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 3/4
128) 4th Tank Division (4/5) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 2/5
129) 15th Tank Division (4/4) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 1/4 and promotes to 2/5 elite
130) 20th Tank Division (4/5) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 4/5
131) 22nd Tank Division (4/4) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank withdraws at 1/4, GoW infantry left with 2/4
132) 26th Tank Division (4/4) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 3/4 and promotes to 4/5 elite
133) 1st Tank Division (3/4) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; GoW infantry wins with 1/4
134) 3rd Tank Division (3/4) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; GoW infantry wins with 2/4
135) 11nd Tank Reserve (3/3 in Quanto Mechanico) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank withdraws at 1/3, GoW infantry left with 2/4
136) 21st Tank Reserve (3/3 in Abilene) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 3/3
137) 23rd Tank Division (3/5) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 2/5 and generates a great leader (Hamilcar)
138) 25th Tank Division (3/4) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank wins with 1/4 and promotes to 2/5 elite
139) 27th Tank Division (3/4) attacks 3/4 GoW infantry; our tank withdraws at 1/4, GoW infantry left with 2/4
140) 28th Tank Division (3/4) attacks 4/4 GoW marine; our tank wins with 3/4 and promotes to 4/5 elite
141) 31st Tank Division (3/4) attacks 4/4 GoW marine; our tank wins with 2/4 and promotes to 3/5 elite
142) 32nd Tank Division (3/4) attacks 4/4 GoW marine; our tank wins with 2/4 and promotes to 3/5 elite
143) 37th Tank Division (3/4) attacks 4/4 GoW marine; GoW marine wins with 2/4 and promotes to 3/5 elite
144) 21st Tank Reserve (3/3) attacks 4/4 GoW marine; our tank wins with 2/3 and promotes to 3/4 veteran



God knows if I copied everything correctly from all those little pieces of paper... someone try replaying it, please.

Comments only after getting some sleep.

Last edited by Kloreep on 06-12-2004 at 09:22

	06-12-2004 08:08									#43
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Any figures on the losses on each side?

	06-12-2004 08:13									#44
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Bleh.

'night!

	06-12-2004 08:38									#45
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Some comments on the builds as they are in the chronicle. Don't know the disbanding schedule, but those whose schedules cannot be cut down should change thus:

Forkmouth is doing a 2-turn inf when it could be a 2-turn tank
Zargonia is doing a 1-turn Inf when it could be a 1-turn tank
Dye Fields is doing a 2-turn fighter when it could be a 2-turn tank (I know it may get bombed, but we can always change it on the fly next turn, and turn after that with F1, as needed)
Tarzania: 2-turn inf, could be 2-turn tank
Horsefish: 3-turn tank, could be infantry that would come in 2 (I assume we'll be disbanding something here though to make the tank 2)

	06-12-2004 09:00									#46
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Added up the losses for you lazy bums.

Lego lost 11 Tanks
GoW lost 22 Infantry, 12 Tanks and 4 Marines

	06-12-2004 09:10									#47
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I believe this is the casualty tally.

GoW: 11 tanks, 23 infantry, 4 marines lost
Lego: 11 tanks lost

Edit: Doublechecked and those figures are right, it's Trip's that are off.

Edit Again: BTW, I've replayed, and everything seems correct, Vondrack. Only one small thing:

quote: 90) all tanks (1st through 7th) moved from Forkmouth to N-NW of Dye Fields

I edited this to be 1st through 10th.

	06-12-2004 09:18									#48
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Hey, it's not like I actually have to care how it ends.

Radek, when you send this turn on, could you send a copy to me as well? Just this turn though.

	06-12-2004 09:53									#49
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I think we should turn the GL in to an Infantry army. Not much else to use it for. (Let's not start putting Tanks in armies... cuts down on the amount of attacking the individual tanks can do. This isn't C3C.)

We have 8 artillery left in Abilene. Do we keep them there, bombarding the GS stack and then leaving them for defense, or do we move them and bombard GoW Marines?

It's tempting to hit the GoW stack while it's down. That said, Abilene will be the only possible focus of the tanks next turn. We should probably use them against the GS stack instead so that they stay inside Abilene.

Another issue: Those 8 marines by QM. What the bleep purpose do they serve? Perhaps they've predicted our forest move and want to move them next to QM? It would tie down more infantry next turn.

I assume we're going to block QM's only coast tile with Battleships.

I think we should move the heavily wounded battleships in to QM proper (or Forkmouth where we won't have to move them next turn should things go south?) and get them healed. Unit vs unit, we have the GS fleet on the run; but that'll only happen in Civ3's HP world if we get them helaed. We need to consider, however, bombers on that carrier; those could bomb our currently health battleships and allow the destroyers a chance.

Castlea is completing a carrier in 1 turn. Could we spare a horse disband to turn it in to a battleship in 2 turns?

	06-12-2004 14:34									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Some comments on the builds as they are in the chronicle. Don't know the disbanding schedule, but those whose schedules cannot be cut down should change thus: Forkmouth is doing a 2-turn inf when it could be a 2-turn tank Zargonia is doing a 1-turn Inf when it could be a 1-turn tank Dye Fields is doing a 2-turn fighter when it could be a 2-turn tank (I know it may get bombed, but we can always change it on the fly next turn, and turn after that with F1, as needed) Tarzania: 2-turn inf, could be 2-turn tank Horsefish: 3-turn tank, could be infantry that would come in 2 (I assume we'll be disbanding something here though to make the tank 2)

Pretty much all builds set during the initial turn phase are placeholders only, even if "reasonably close" ones - though there is one rule that may not be obvious at the first glance. Trying to play things as safely as possible, cities with high pollution that would have a tank build delayed by having a tile polluted are deliberately set to build an infantry instead of a tank - so that they finish their build for sure even if struck by pollution.

I am basically following a rule saying that a finished infantry is better than an unfinished tank.

However, we can go through the cities and take some informed risks, should we wish so.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I believe this is the casualty tally. GoW: 11 tanks, 23 infantry, 4 marines lost Lego: 11 tanks lost Edit: Doublechecked and those figures are right, it's Trip's that are off.

Wow! Summed up, it does not look bad (I did not have quite that impression while playing the turn... we did have some bad streaks and they probably skewed the overall feeling for me... or maybe I was just tired too much).

38 kills for 11 losses sounds quite impressive. And I guess GoW will need to adjust their luxury slider a wee bit this coming turn... I can't access the CFC WW thread ATM, but I believe 38 units lost should be 2*38=76 war weariness points... that's a lot. Hm, now that I can access the CFC article, it may be even more, since it does not seem to matter whether you win a defensive battle or not - it's the very fact that you get attacked that adds 2 wwp to your pool...

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Edit Again: BTW, I've replayed, and everything seems correct, Vondrack. Only one small thing: I edited this to be 1st through 10th.

Ah, true - thanks, Kloreep!

quote: Originally posted by Trip Radek, when you send this turn on, could you send a copy to me as well? Just this turn though.

Will do.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I think we should turn the GL in to an Infantry army. Not much else to use it for. (Let's not start putting Tanks in armies... cuts down on the amount of attacking the individual tanks can do. This isn't C3C.)

Agreed.

I was not fresh enough in the night to do anything with that GL. I was happy to realize there was no need to do anything with it at that very moment (since we got it with our last available 3/x+ elite attacking).

Agreed that creating an infantry army sounds like the thing to do. We do not have anything reasonable to rush, so we better use it to create an army and have it win at least one battle. Kloreep is right that stuffing such an army with tanks would be counterproductive. OTOH, a 12/12 infantry army in Abilene...

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep We have 8 artillery left in Abilene. Do we keep them there, bombarding the GS stack and then leaving them for defense, or do we move them and bombard GoW Marines? It's tempting to hit the GoW stack while it's down. That said, Abilene will be the only possible focus of the tanks next turn. We should probably use them against the GS stack instead so that they stay inside Abilene.

Thinking this over, I would very much prefer leaving them in Abilene. The GoW SoD is severely crippled - their best attacker is a 4/4 marine (29 of them), then a handful (19?) 2/4 infantries and 5 damaged tanks. Our counter-fort will be manned by like 20 infantries, several elite tanks, and 29 artillery. I believe our chances to keep the counter-fort are very good, even if we leave the GoW stack as it is ATM.

OTOH, every 4/4 GS MIs hit near Abilene means most likely one less attacker Abilene defenses will have to face this coming turn. And every successful defensive bombard improves chances of one of our defenders by a good margin (10%+).

So, yes, agreed - a three-4/4-infantry army in Abilene.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Another issue: Those 8 marines by QM. What the bleep purpose do they serve? Perhaps they've predicted our forest move and want to move them next to QM? It would tie down more infantry next turn.

I don't think they are meant to serve any other purpose than to make it more difficult for us to kill them. GS knew that left out in the sea, they were toast (their transport must have been checking something around Forkmouth, probably lacking movement points to stick to the main fleet). So they landed them, to make us use more than a single ship to destroy them...

I do not think we need to worry about them. Even if they move next to Q.M., we simply shell them down to 1/4 and then finish them off with tanks, making Q.M. 100% safe again. Considering that almost all our tanks are 1/4 or 2/4, I believe we will have to wait at least a turn before we mount another massive counterattack. And those few relatively healthy tanks of ours plus a couple of new ones should tear these marines apart just fine. It may actually be the only attack we mount next turn, limiting ourselves to artillery barrage against GS and GoW SoDs.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I assume we're going to block QM's only coast tile with Battleships.

Yes, that's what I assume, too. And we will try to block Abilene from a seaborne attack as well.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I think we should move the heavily wounded battleships in to QM proper (or Forkmouth where we won't have to move them next turn should things go south?) and get them healed. Unit vs unit, we have the GS fleet on the run; but that'll only happen in Civ3's HP world if we get them helaed. We need to consider, however, bombers on that carrier; those could bomb our currently health battleships and allow the destroyers a chance.

Agreed on moving our damaged BBs to Q.M. to heal. With the exception of ships that will have to participate in the sea wall around Abilene (all that can make it to there), I would try moving everything else into Q.M. (using any spare movement points to bomb that lonely transport or those detached marines) and let it heal next turn.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Castlea is completing a carrier in 1 turn. Could we spare a horse disband to turn it in to a battleship in 2 turns?

Well, this is probably the only thing I do not quite agree with. Whether we have 2 or 3 BBs against the mighty GoW navy, it is not going to make much of a difference - we will still have to keep them to ports, never exposing them to all those DDs. OTOH, with a carrier loaded with bombers, we'll have more options - we will be able to hit targets as far as 8 tiles from our East Coast ports. Detached vessels can be brought to 1/x and finished with submarines, perhaps we might even bomb the GoW coast? (not having the save opened right now).

I would finish the carrier, hopefully sneak it to Jackson and then finally start hitting GoW back even at sea.


I need to write some business emails right now, but once I am done, I will start working on the remainder of this turn. I should be reasonably free to focus on it today.

	06-12-2004 16:16									#51
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Agreed on moving our damaged BBs to Q.M. to heal. With the exception of ships that will have to participate in the sea wall around Abilene (all that can make it to there), I would try moving everything else into Q.M. (using any spare movement points to bomb that lonely transport or those detached marines) and let it heal next turn.

I'd like to add only one thing: I'd prefer very much to kill that transport near QM. We actually don't know whether it is empty! GS could have very well landed 8 marines from another transport, move the transport away, and then keep a fully loaded transport near them , creating the illusion that the marines were on that ship! It sounds improbable, but can we risk leaving a transport near several undefended cities, while not being 100% sure that it is empty? Besides, one transport less is one transport less

quote: Well, this is probably the only thing I do not quite agree with. Whether we have 2 or 3 BBs against the mighty GoW navy, it is not going to make much of a difference - we will still have to keep them to ports, never exposing them to all those DDs. OTOH, with a carrier loaded with bombers, we'll have more options - we will be able to hit targets as far as 8 tiles from our East Coast ports. Detached vessels can be brought to 1/x and finished with submarines, perhaps we might even bomb the GoW coast? (not having the save opened right now). I would finish the carrier, hopefully sneak it to Jackson and then finally start hitting GoW back even at sea.

I tend to agree with Kloreep here. We wouldn't be able to send the carrier out to the sea for several turns anyway (no escort), so why should we keep a carrier in a city ?? That seems kind of a waste for me. We can bomb the GoW stack from Jackson or Dye Fields for now. Besides, if we would build another BB in Jackson, we would have 4 already, which with some bomber support is not bad.

Other than that, I agree with the proposed ideas and plans.

	06-12-2004 21:03									#52
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Infantry Army:

Tibi might be on to something with the idea that those marines didn't actually come from that transport... it might be worth it to take it out if we can.

As for a BB vs. Carrier, well, I'm going to have to lean on the side of the BB. As has been said, that Carrier won't be up and running with planes for a good many turns, whereas the BB will be very useful in the short term.

Other than that, Go Lego!

	06-12-2004 21:12									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I'd like to add only one thing: I'd prefer very much to kill that transport near QM. We actually don't know whether it is empty! GS could have very well landed 8 marines from another transport, move the transport away, and then keep a fully loaded transport near them , creating the illusion that the marines were on that ship! It sounds improbable, but can we risk leaving a transport near several undefended cities, while not being 100% sure that it is empty? Besides, one transport less is one transport less

Agreed - I believe we'll be able to kill it safely 'along the way', while moving our BBs to their defensive positions. I will keep that in mind planning our navy moves there.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I tend to agree with Kloreep here. We wouldn't be able to send the carrier out to the sea for several turns anyway (no escort), so why should we keep a carrier in a city ?? That seems kind of a waste for me. We can bomb the GoW stack from Jackson or Dye Fields for now. Besides, if we would build another BB in Jackson, we would have 4 already, which with some bomber support is not bad.

I started putting reasons to finish this carrier together... only to realize eventually that finishing a BB here would really be better. I would not worry about being unable to get a new carrier out to the sea... but we would not have bombers enough to make it a threat, unless we'd leave the existing carrier (H.B.S. Tiberius Kerekes) in the Western Ocean idling. So, agreed - let's rush the build in Castlea to 180S (cost: 60g), reassign labourers from coasts to unimproved mountains (-14fpt, 25spt) and finish a BB in 1t.

	06-12-2004 22:38									#54
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What do you think... counting our tanks, numbers did not match for me... ...and guess what - I have found one more regular tank in Oasis! So, add one more line to the battle log:

145) new tank (in Oasis) named 38th Tank Reserve, attacks 4/4 GoW marine; our tank wins with 2/3

This changes the total losses to:

GoW: 11 tanks, 23 infantry, 5 marines
Lego: 11 tanks lost

	06-12-2004 23:29									#55
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OK, getting to finalizing our plans now...

Eastern Theatre

GoW SoD & our Counter-Fort

After the Omaha Beach Massacre, this is what we and GoW have there:

GoW:
1 settler
27 artillery pieces
5 tanks (1/4, 1/5, 2x 2/4, 3/4)
19 infantries (1/4, 17x 2/4, 2/5)
29 marines (3/3, 3/5, 26x 4/4)

Lego
29 artillery pieces
27 tanks (1/3, 4x 1/4, 2/3, 11x 2/4, 4x 2/5, 3/4, 2x 3/5, 3x 4/5)

Now, the no-brainer part is that we build a fort city SW of the GoW SoD, using one of our stocked settlers. This will prevent GoW from building their own fort next turn, effectively forcing them to either leave their marines on land, unable to attack anything but our counter-fort, or board them, making them unable to hit anything next turn. Both is fine. Or... rather... none is real bad for us.

Let's try thinking a bit ahead... what are GoW likely to do now? They have got but a few marines capable of striking from the sea. Their surviving tank forces on land are next to none. And they have 27 arty pieces they certainly don't want to lose to us.

Those arty pieces look dangerous, but let's have a closer look. If GoW fires them at something, they will become sort of a liability. They will have to be defended. Should GoW take one of our coastal cities, they'd have to split their forces... and they are not exactly drowning in 4/4 infantries. This is what leads me to believe that if they are used against anything, it will be against the counter-fort... since GoW would be able to build their invasion fort then, keeping all victorious units pretty much together.

Granted... they have like 35 tanks out at sea, and 9 (maybe more) marines... but unless they are able to take a coastal city and start extreme combat settling into our interior (only 4 more combat settlers available, though), attacking them accomplishes nothing.

So... what are "safe" defenses for Jackson and Dye Fields? We need to consider all those arty pieces and bombers (up to 16 of them), which can take 4/4 infantries down to just 2/4 or 1/4) - so we better make sure both cities are stuffed with (almost) as many defenders as GoW will have units to attack them with. 15 units for Jackson and 20 units for Dye Fields sound good to me. I would use 10 infantry and 5 tanks for Jackson, and 10 infantry and 10 tanks for Dye Fields. Incidentally, 15 tanks still able to move is what we have ATM.

This leaves the counter-fort to be manned. It can be hit with all that bombing power GoW has around... our own hit ratio this turn has been 75%. Our infantries will be fortified and bombers have lower bombard rating, which should make it a bit worse for GoW. Let's conservatively assume that 70% of their ranged weapons hit. That's (27+16)*0.7=30. About 1/4 of our hits were for 2hps, let's grant that to GoW, too. The rest would be for 1hp. OTOH, our defenses are bolstered by 29 artillery (GoW's successful defensive bombard ratio this turn was 60% - plus, they'd be attacking mostly with marines, we were attacking with tanks, so assuming at least 60% hits sounds reasonable).

So, let's start with 20 infantry (and 12 now immobile tanks of ours - six of them at 3/x+). Our infantries are now all at 2hp, half of GoW marines attack at 3/4 (odds 48%), the other half at 4/4 (odds 61%). Let's say half of them wins - we are down to 5 infantries and 12 tanks. GoW is left with 19 2/4 infantries (odds to kill a 2/x tank: ~30%, odds to kill a 3/x+ tank: under 15%) and 5 tanks. They would have to win 3 out of 4 attacks to break through - but the odds would be just the other way round.

But just for sure, let's try keeping in mind that adding few cannon fodder units here would add extra safety. If there are spare cannon fodder units, we should use them here.

	06-12-2004 23:42									#56
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To complement the defenses of Jackson, Dye Fields, and our counter-fort (good name anyone? I am kinda stuck with Omaha Beach... but I have no idea whether it's a sensitive topic for people from the US - Dieppe would be a similar name, related to the British... maybe Camp Welcome? Welcome Committee?), we need to set up our defenses for the following turns, too.

One of the possible scenarios is that GoW lands the rest of their forces - we would probably have to disband the camp then, just cutting their landing beach from our RR network.

Another possible response to our counter-attack can be boarding everything back to the transports, threatening Jackson & Dye Fields again (could force us to abandon Dye Fields).

Either way, we better make sure it's impossible to break through into our interior, getting as far as to Red Bricks and Jackson in a single dash.

To this effect, following my post earlier in this thread, I suggest planting forests at the following tiles:

W-SW of Dye Fields
W-NW of Dye Fields
SE of Legopolis

This will effectively prevent crawling into our interior without taking either Dye Fields or Jackson.

9 workers needed to plant three forests.

	07-12-2004 00:21									#57
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Finishing the Eastern Theatre... we still have 2 DDs in Jackson. I suggest simply bombing the GoW DDs next to the landing beach and hiding back in Jackson again. No need to risk against a stack of DDs (defensive bombard) here. Even if we won, what difference a victory would make? Two dead GoW DDs... out of about 15? Meh...

GoW Airfield

Now, there is an idea I have been playing with for some time. GoW built an airfield SW-SW of Zenophobia (on those rubber plains). They are only protecting it with three vet cavalries. That tile can be attacked by freshly built marines sailing out from Castlea... a 4/4 marine has 82.2% chances to kill even a 4/4 fortified cavalry...
and if we are able to blast those cavalries down a little bit, have a transport route from Castlea ready and an escort waiting... we might actually take those bombers out with little losses...

This would be the plan for this turn:

1) Rebase all our bombers to Castlea.
They could be used to either directly bomb the airfield, or to bomb the 5/5 DD 4xN of Castlea, making her into an easy pick for our BB to be completed in Castlea. Not being able to use the bombers this turn against the GS SoD is one of the drawbacks of this plan.

2) move one transport to Castlea and another one to NW of Castlea
See the plan for the following turn for an explanation. We could even move more transports to NW of Castlea, to make it look like we are just trying to block the naval access to the city.

And on the following turn:

3) if GoW reports bombing Castlea (Castlea is the only meaningful target for GoW bombers flying from that airfield - GoW carrier based aircraft will have better targets available), we use the F1 trick to switch 4-5 builds to marines. This is the other drawback of the plan. 4-5 vet marines means 4-5 less 4/4 tanks.

4) BBs from Jackson move E-N-N-N-N and bomb the airfield
5) DDs from Jackson move E-N-N-N-N and fortify

6) marines board the transport in Castlea, move NW, change to the other transport, move N-NE-E-E-E, and attack the airfield, hopefully taking it

At this point, we would be free to decide... we could simply move the transport with surviving marines S to join the BB/DD escort. We could land all the marines, hoping to cut the road to that rubber next turn (GoW is unlikely to have decent counter-attack forces there). We could try using our bombers from Castlea to cut the road immediately - or use them to weaken the 5/5 DD, taking her out with our new 4/4 BB sailing out from Castlea...


It's just an idea and not without a cost - bombers not available for bombing this turn, 4-5 tanks less... but I thought I'd post it... we need to think and act actively... not just defending against actions of our enemies, but forcing them to defend against our own actions, too.

Final Moves

To make sure Zargonia is not threatened by a detached GoW fleet (a remote possibility, but still a possibility), we move H.B.S. Artemis (E of Zargonia) NE-NE-NE-SW-SW-SW. That will lift FoW enough.

I would probably leave U-J1 where it is (S-SW of Zenophobia). Covers a good deal of the sea - no need to check Jackson radius, since we defend it against the maximum theoretical seaborne attack anyway.

U-C1 (new sub from Crossing) to move NE-NE-N-N.

	07-12-2004 01:03									#58
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We could name it "Fort Stanwix." That was a fortress in New York that withstood the British onslaught during the Revolutionary War

	07-12-2004 01:17									#59
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The Western Theatre

We have the following goals in the Western Theatre for this turn:

a) isolate the GS SoD, preventing extreme combat settling
b) make Quanto Mechanico safe from a seaborne attack
c) defend Abilene against the GS tanks
d) make Abilene safe from a seaborne attack
e) sink the GS transport W-NW-NW of Q.M.
f) bring as many damaged ships to ports as possible
g) sell all Tipperary improvements and disband the city
h) prevent the GS explorer from doing harm to us

Isolating the GS SoD

- 2 horses to move to NW of Abilene; pillage and move to Abilene
- horse+cavalry to move to N of Abilene; pillage and move to Abilene
- 2 explorers to move to N-NE of Abilene; pillage and move to RR network
- 3 cavalry to move to N-N of Abilene; pillage and move to RR network

Total units needed: 2 explorers, 3 horses, 4 cavalry

Naval Moves - Quanto Mechanico

- H.B.S. Tipperary (NW of Sandonorico) to move SW-SW-SW-S-S-SE
- H.B.S. Karina (SW of Sandonorico) to move SW-SW-SW-S-SE, bombing the transport along the way
- H.B.S. Farmerville and H.B.S. Remus (SW-SW of Sandonorico) to move SW-SW-S-SE-E into Q.M., bombing the transport along the way
- H.B.S. Jackson (W of Sandonorico) to move SW-SW-SW, then S, sinking the transport, and SE-SE
- H.B.S. Legopolis (S-SW-SW-SW of Forkmouth) to move SE-SE-S-S-SE-E into Q.M.

As part of our Operation Forest Bump, we shall plant forest SW of Q.M. and SW of Ahhmyfoot (3+3=6 workers needed).

Naval Moves - Abilene
- 3 vet transports to move SW of Abilene
- H.B.S. Castor & H.B.S. Pollux to move to SW of Abilene, bombing the GS fleet along the way

- H.B.S. Panama, H.B.S. Kloreepville & H.B.S. Romulus (SW-SW-SW of Sandonorico) to move SW-S-S-S-S-S
- new vet DD from Q.M. to move to W of Abilene

This leaves the coastal tile W of Abilene blocked by a 4/4 DD, 2/4 BB, 1/4 BB, and 1/4 DD. The tile SW of Abilene will be blocked by three 4/4 transports and two 1/4 DDs. It's far from bulletproof, but that's all we have there. We should have rushed a 4/4 DD in Tipperary before disbanding it... If GS throws their empty transports at ships surviving the DD attacks (GS has 1/4, 2/4, and 3/4 DD within the striking range), they could actually break through the seawall, allowing their marines to strike at Abilene... a scary thought, indeed.

Come to think of it... maybe we should use our bombers to bomb the GS fleet. We will most likely lose one or two to the fighter escort, but every hp off those DDs would be golden. Yeah, that's what we should do. The landed SoD can wait.

Abilene Defenses

All available infantries not defending our East Coast (54 of them, IIRC) to fortify in Abilene. All 8 arty pieces to bombard to GS SoD N-NW of the city. If we chose not to attack the GoW airfield, all three bombers to bomb the GS SoD. Spare cannon fodder units (not many, I think) to be divided roughly 50:50 between the counter-fort and Abilene.

Blocking the GS explorer

Units must be parked on the line connecting Q.M. and Ahhmyfoot, and Abilene and Ahhmyfoot. Total of 7 tiles to block (one of them will be blocked by workers just having planted forest, though), so 6 units needed.

Last edited by vondrack on 07-12-2004 at 03:36

	07-12-2004 01:50									#60
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Builds

There are few things we need to consider when planning our builds. First, 2 turns from now, we will be able to finish civil defenses. Civil Defense is a big deal, granting 50% extra defense to city defenders. That's huge. We should plan for finishing civil defenses at least in the cities under direct threat on the very turn we discover Radio - Quanto Mechanico, Abilene, maybe Ahmyfoot in the West. Jackson, Dye Fields, Zargonia in the East.

Quanto can do 120S civil defense in a single turn (with a bit of rushing). Abilene will need 2t and some rush gold, just like Ahhmyfoot. Jackson should be able to finish it in 1t (disband/shortrush needed) unless we lose the plant or factory, Dye Fields will need 2t. Zargonia should only need a single turn.

Second, our supplies of obsolete units are running thin - and at the same time, we are going to need quite a lot of 3-movers to cut roads around the SoDs... so generally, I'll try to disband as few cavs as possible.

And third, I suggest we put the luxury slider to 20%. We are likely to be hit by an enormous number of units, suffering a lot of WW - it's likely that we will go down a level on the WW ladder. "Wasting" ~160g is negligible to having half of our cities riot next turn. I will ask Vox for some extra funds, they offered more help.

Legopolis - let's build a 1t settler here. Another fighter would need a disbanded cav to finish. The city has two specialists ATM, and after using one of our stocked settlers for Fort Stanwix, we will only have one left. A settler should complete even if we are hit with more bombardment.

Jackson - disband cavalry, build 1t tank; if hit by bombardment, switch to 1t infantry or shortrush to 30S during the F1 trick phase, sticking to the tank build.

Farmerville - 1t worker

Panama - disband cavalry, build 1t tank

Red Bricks - 1t tank

Forkmouth - disband cavalry, shortrush to 30S (40g), and do a 1t tank here

Karina - 1t tank

Zargonia - let's risk a bit this turn and try a 1t tank here; should we fail, we turn the build into a 2t BB

Dye Fields - a 120S prebuild (for civil defense)

Sandonorico - max shields out and switch to explorer (to be finished in 1t)

Logville - disband cavalry, build 1t tank

Sharpehaven - disband cavalry, build 1t tank

Oasis - 1t cavalry (or 1t artillery?)

Tarzania - disband cavalry, shortrush to 30S (40g), try 1t tank; should we fail, we do airport here next turn

Camp David - another 1t explorer

Kloreepville - 1t tank

Ahhmyfoot - 2t civil defense or tank

Crossing - 3t submarine

Tiberium - 2t tank or DD

Q.M. - disband cavalry, shortrush to 30S (40g) and do a 1t tank

Abilene - 2t tank or civil defense

Horsefish - not sure; probably a 2t infantry (leave as is)

Castlea - shortrush to 180S (60g), all labourers to shield generating tiles, switch to BB

Tipperary - sell all improvements, disband city

Port Hammer - another 1t worker

So... that's 7 disbanded cavalries and 180g for shortrushing (minus some change for Tipperary city improvements). Up to 11 new vet tanks next turn.