18-11-2004 21:06									#31
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Fiscal conservative (or at least a moderate. Compared to Bush, a conservative ). Labelled a hardcore liberal. Screwed up somehow in Iowa, punctuated by a bizarre screeching incident the media had a field day with.

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 21:15									#32
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He lost in Iowa mostly due to getting into a pissing match with Gephardt. The screech was just a pep ralley (there were tons of out of state volunteers who needed a boost at the time). All firsthand accounts I've heard about the Dean Scream say that it was great (and was drowned out by the cheers, incidentally).

He was also to the right of Kerry on a variety of non fiscal issues - he opposed gun control, for instance.

	18-11-2004 21:29									#33
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BTW, there's a fight between Dean (whose state went for Kerry over Gore by the largest margin, FWIW) and Vilsack (who couldn't even deliver his own state to Kerry, despite it being the state that crowned him as nominee) for the DNC chair. The failed leadership (Kerry, Pelosi, Reid) are backing Vilsack, whose only "agenda" seems to be to keep the Iowa caucuses, while tmavericks and the rank and file are backing Dean, the only guy who understood from the beginning that the fundamental problem was lack of the "vision thing."

Kerry is also holding $45 million over the DNC to have his way.

	18-11-2004 21:34									#34
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I never understood why the Dean Scream was perceived as bad.

	18-11-2004 21:35									#35
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Because the media said it was "unpresidential," whatever the hell that means.

	18-11-2004 21:49									#36
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I thought the north won the civil war.

Bend over North cause Dixie is coming to getcha, yehaw.

	18-11-2004 22:48									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun "secede" -- not "succeed"

spelling/grammar nazi!

	18-11-2004 22:50									#38
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I think you all need to look to Arnold Swarchenegger for guidance.

He won running as a republican in a heavy democratic state. Why? Not because he stuck to party lines, but because he ran as a moderate.

I'd say Oerdin's right in this case.

	18-11-2004 22:51									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I never understood why the Dean Scream was perceived as bad.

because he looked unstable. Do you want that man in charge of the world's largest nuclear aresenal?

	18-11-2004 23:08									#40
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I wonder why Vilsack wants the DNC job? If he stays out of that, he's got a good shot at being the next President of the United States.

	18-11-2004 23:35									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel what the hell are "nativity scenes" and do the have something to do with having sex in the woods?

It's a traditional North American thing where the church-going ****ers stick a diarama displaying the birth of Jesus on their church's lawn. Not super-common.

	18-11-2004 23:58									#42
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quote: The majority can be stupid sometimes on such issues as "flying the Confederate flag" and "gay marriage."

I REALLY hope you guys use that as a campaign slogan in 2008. You guys are becoming the best players on the Republican team.

	19-11-2004 00:08									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly No, he thinks the Dems need to change ideology, not move it -- and he's wrong.

You are wrong. Why don't you let me decide what I'm saying and if you are unclear on what I mean please feel free to ask. I'm saying we need to decide what the Democratic Party stands for and then we need to hone that message to a fine edge while eliminating distractions which offend the majority of voters.

quote: The GOP didn't change their ideology --

They've changed multiple times over the years and they certainly change the issues they focus on periodically to maintain the interest of voters. Why shouldn't Democrats do the same? It's just smart politics.

	19-11-2004 00:09									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident because he looked unstable. Do you want that man in charge of the world's largest nuclear aresenal?

Bush looks stupid. We conclude you 'Mercuns want a stupid man in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal.

Didn't look more unstable to me than the average coach giving a peptalk. But I suppose I should long since realized that the average American's thought patterns are quite alien to me.

	19-11-2004 00:13									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Bush looks stupid. We conclude you 'Mercuns want a stupid man in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Didn't look more unstable to me than the average coach giving a peptalk. But I suppose I should long since realized that the average American's thought patterns are quite alien to me.

their thought patterns are alien to me as well

	19-11-2004 00:18									#46
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Azazel what the hell are "nativity scenes" and do the have something to do with having sex in the woods? It's a traditional North American thing where the church-going ****ers stick a diarama displaying the birth of Jesus on their church's lawn. Not super-common.

He's joking about my mispelling of it.

	19-11-2004 00:19									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin They've changed multiple times over the years and they certainly change the issues they focus on periodically to maintain the interest of voters. Why shouldn't Democrats do the same? It's just smart politics.

Yes, but Rufus point is that the Republican moved rightward, the same direction that had lead to Goldwaters crushing defeat in '64, instead of becoming Democrats Lite. Now many Democrats want to be Republican Lite.

The problem is that democrats let the debate be defined by the other side- the very idea that the word liberal is some pejorative is at the heart of the problem. Democrats have to fight and free our political debate from the conservatives and fight little notions like the "death tax" (estate tax!). Heck, we should call it the Wealth Tax, since that is what it is.

	19-11-2004 08:28									#48
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why wasnt jesus born an american?


cuz they couldnt find three wise men or a virgin.

	19-11-2004 08:44									#49
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I think LoA should secede off to some island in the Pacific and try running his Southerner-free Libertarian happyland.

	19-11-2004 09:06									#50
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I think all of our problems (i.e. conservatives) are due to the invention of the air conditioner. During the Civil War, the North had twice the population of the South. Now it's not like that. Why? Because of air conditioning. Without air conditioning, people wouldn't want to live in the South.

	19-11-2004 09:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, but Rufus point is that the Republican moved rightward, the same direction that had lead to Goldwaters crushing defeat in '64, instead of becoming Democrats Lite. Now many Democrats want to be Republican Lite.

It is so ignorant to call it becoming Republican lite. It just shows some people STILL haven't figured out how to get elected. You stop taking about gays and attacking religion and instead talk about the need to universal health care and better funding/higher standards in school. If you consider Universal Health Care and greater school funding to be Republican lite then there is a major problem.

	19-11-2004 09:15									#52
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quote: I think LoA should secede off to some island in the Pacific and try running his Southerner-free Libertarian happyland.

or even better, we could displace the southerners off their land. they are a threat to america, and are only there cuz we (ie the northerners) give millions each year to them, and then they have the gall to whine. id be much richer if instead of giving money to their shanties i kept it myself and invest into my retirement, or give it to the boys n girls club of america center nearby where i live.

	19-11-2004 09:19									#53
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that would most assuredly not be libertarian, to force southerners off the very land they've owned.

conclusion: LoA is a Communist.

	19-11-2004 09:25									#54
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quote: that would most assuredly not be libertarian, to force southerners off the very land they've owned. conclusion: LoA is a Communist.

southerners dont own any land - they bought it using my money, so it should be my land.

	19-11-2004 09:27									#55
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quote: southerners dont own any land - they bought it using my money, so it should be my land.

Lots of land around here has been in the same family for more than a century. Do you live on land that your grandfather owned?

	19-11-2004 09:38									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It is so ignorant to call it becoming Republican lite. It just shows some people STILL haven't figured out how to get elected. You stop taking about gays and attacking religion and instead talk about the need to universal health care and better funding/higher standards in school. If you consider Universal Health Care and greater school funding to be Republican lite then there is a major problem.

See, this is why I think you're wrong. In the last election, Dems did talk about health care and education, ad nauseum. They didn't talk about gays unless the Republicans brought it up. They never attacked religion (I defy you to produce an example of a Democratic candidate attacking religion).

In other words, the Dems did exactly what you think they should do, and it didn't work. The problem is not the message; the problem is that they don't know how to present Liberalism as Americanism, and they've never bothered to devlop and attack-and-distort machine to match the power of the GOP's.

Right now, they Dems have had reasonable positions -- like their position on gay rights -- taken away from them and distorted by GOP scare-mongers. The Dems used to do the same thing to conservatives -- Johnson's daisy commercial is probably the most famous example -- but they've either forgotten how to do it or they've lost the will. The Dems don't need a new ideology; they need either new brains or new balls. Gephardt didn't have 'em; Daschelle didn't have 'em; moderates just don't have 'em. Liberals like Russ Feingold and Nancy Pelosi do.

	19-11-2004 09:40									#57
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quote: Lots of land around here has been in the same family for more than a century. Do you live on land that your grandfather owned?

yeah, most of it built on the blood of slaves. like i'd really want to live on land haunted by the souls of people who hated my granddaddy for what he did to them (whipped them, worked them without pay, killed them, raped them, and oppressed them)

	19-11-2004 09:46									#58
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quote: they need either new brains or new balls. Gephardt didn't have 'em; Daschelle didn't have 'em; moderates just don't have 'em. Liberals like Russ Feingold and Nancy Pelosi do.

Actually if you are talking about brains and balls, you should go back to Carville who helped get Clinton in.

	19-11-2004 09:50									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: they need either new brains or new balls. Gephardt didn't have 'em; Daschelle didn't have 'em; moderates just don't have 'em. Liberals like Russ Feingold and Nancy Pelosi do. Actually if you are talking about brains and balls, you should go back to Carville who helped get Clinton in.

Absolutely. And my sense is that Carville is much more liberal that Clinton -- much more like an old-fashioned Huey Long populist than a weenie New Democrat.

	19-11-2004 09:54									#60
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Hey guys, I have a hunch that LoA may not like the South.