18-11-2004 14:21									#1
	Ditch Dixie Put an end to popups!

http://slate.msn.com/id/102291/

whose with me?

	18-11-2004 14:27									#2
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We can keep playing these little games or we can deal with the real reason the far left isn't playing well in the south. We need to dump the extremists pushing to ban nativity scenes in public parks and instead focus on the message of getting better health care for all Americans and better educations for their children. The truth is you can't do anything unless you win elections.

	18-11-2004 14:42									#3
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(actually i think california should succeed by itself. who needs oregon? i mean really )

	18-11-2004 14:51									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We can keep playing these little games or we can deal with the real reason the far left isn't playing well in the south. We need to dump the extremists pushing to ban nativity scenes in public parks and instead focus on the message of getting better health care for all Americans and better educations for their children. The truth is you can't do anything unless you win elections.

You know, you say this in every thread, and I think you need to be called on this bullsh!t.

40 years ago, the GOP ran Barry Goldwater for president and got trounced in one of the worst defeats in US history (the popular vote was more lopsided that either Nixon-McGovern or Reagan-Mondale, iirc). Triumphant liberals proudly claimed that America just wasn't that right-wing, that Republicans were extremists, that the liberal consensus was here to stay and the GOP needed to accommodate it.

16 years later, Ronald Reagan was elected president. 8 years after that, Goldwater pronounced Reagan too conservative for his tastes.

16 years after [i[that[/i], we have a Republican president so conservative that he's capable of horrifying Reaganites (see my sig, for example).

Liberals don't have to moderate their "extremism," any more than the conservatives did. Instead, they need to imitate conservative tactics, and begin the hard work of moving from their ideologogy back from the margins to the center.

	18-11-2004 16:30									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly You know, you say this in every thread, and I think you need to be called on this bullsh!t. 40 years ago, the GOP ran Barry Goldwater for president and got trounced in one of the worst defeats in US history (the popular vote was more lopsided that either Nixon-McGovern or Reagan-Mondale, iirc). Triumphant liberals proudly claimed that America just wasn't that right-wing, that Republicans were extremists, that the liberal consensus was here to stay and the GOP needed to accommodate it. 16 years later, Ronald Reagan was elected president. 8 years after that, Goldwater pronounced Reagan too conservative for his tastes. 16 years after [i[that[/i], we have a Republican president so conservative that he's capable of horrifying Reaganites (see my sig, for example). Liberals don't have to moderate their "extremism," any more than the conservatives did. Instead, they need to imitate conservative tactics, and begin the hard work of moving from their ideologogy back from the margins to the center.

Um, isn't Oerdin's point that the Dems need to begin the hard work of moving their ideology back from the margins to the center? I don't find your point clear as stated.

	18-11-2004 18:20									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Um, isn't Oerdin's point that the Dems need to begin the hard work of moving their ideology back from the margins to the center? I don't find your point clear as stated.

No, he thinks the Dems need to change ideology, not move it -- and he's wrong. The GOP didn't change their ideology -- if they did, Reagan would be an amusing footnote and we'd all fondly remember President Rockefeller. Instead they built coalitions that connected their formerly-marginal ideology to people beyond the narrow realm of the true believers. That's the tactic that liberals need to emulate. Don't abandon the ideology, and don't apologize for it; instead, do the hard work of showing people why it's right for them. Conservatives did this very, very well, and their example can be followed.

	18-11-2004 20:06									#7
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However, the GOP did change its ideology. Maybe Reagan didn't change his own, but the party is different ideologically than in Nixon's day, for instance.

	18-11-2004 20:09									#8
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Yes...it sure did!

Sadly, not for the better.



-=Vel=-

	18-11-2004 20:10									#9
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia (actually i think california should succeed by itself. who needs oregon? i mean really )

"secede" -- not "succeed"

	18-11-2004 20:13									#10
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Oh, btw, the article is ridiculous. Some of the reddest of red states aren't part of Dixie. In fact, the reddest state had marriage norms dictated to it from the federal government. And those norms were religiously based!

quote: Sadly, not for the better.

There are a lot of big issues around now that weren't around then. It's a different political landscape.

	18-11-2004 20:19									#11
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I'm starting to get embarrassed for some of the Dems here. I've seen 4 year olds take things better than some of ya'll have. I really really hope the Democratic party will listen to the people like Oerdin or Mr. Fun who seem to at least see the troubles in the Democratic party. I haven't been able to vote for a Democrat in years and before too long I may not be able to vote for a Republican.

	18-11-2004 20:21									#12
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what the hell are "nativity scenes" and do the have something to do with having sex in the woods?

	18-11-2004 20:25									#13
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I'm really torn between Oerdin & Rufus' arguements. Each make sense.

I guess the question for those who see it the way Rufus does is this: what conservative tactics are you talking about emulating?

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 20:27									#14
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quote: You hear echoes of Southern nationalism whenever Mississippi invokes "states' rights" to justify flying the Confederate flag over their capitols

We usually appeal to democratic ideals given the referendum we had on the matter. But why let facts get in the way of a good rant.

	18-11-2004 20:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'm really torn between Oerdin & Rufus' arguements. Each make sense. I guess the question for those who see it the way Rufus does is this: what conservative tactics are you talking about emulating? -Arrian

I suppose it depends on what you want the Party to be like. What do you personally feel the party should be.

	18-11-2004 20:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: You hear echoes of Southern nationalism whenever Mississippi invokes "states' rights" to justify flying the Confederate flag over their capitols We usually appeal to democratic ideals given the referendum we had on the matter. But why let facts get in the way of a good rant.

The majority can be stupid sometimes on such issues as "flying the Confederate flag" and "gay marriage."

	18-11-2004 20:35									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Why shouldn't the Dems be dissappointed? Your country has been taken over by a bunch of fundie loons.

Most of the world's population is dissappointed. But you say you don't care – that attitude is why they are dissappointed.

	18-11-2004 20:36									#18
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Me?

Fiscally conservative, socially liberal, proactive on the environment (but I'd stress using proper science, not psuedoscientific hysteria as the basis for policy), and
foreign policy... you know, I'm not sure what the exact term would be. I'm pro-democracy but disagree with the neocon notion of bringing it about via the barrel of a gun. I'm pro-UN (the idea) but generally wary of the UN (the reality). I do think the US government's primary responsibility is to protect the interests of its citizens over the citizens of other nations, but there are limits to that (in other words, America first, yes, but not America uber alles... if that makes sense).

New England Liberal Republican party?

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 20:40									#19
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quote: The majority can be stupid sometimes on such issues as "flying the Confederate flag" and "gay marriage."

Negative, the majority is only stupid when they disagree with you. Funny how that works.

	18-11-2004 20:40									#20
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quote: I guess the question for those who see it the way Rufus does is this: what conservative tactics are you talking about emulating?

He probably means that liberals should try to create their own ideological infrastructure - think tanks, radio stations, and so forth, so they have more control over the parameters of the debate. For the past few decades conservatives have been the only guys building this infrastructure, so they have been able to reframe the debate so that the position has almost become the default position. And with this, the LBJ landslide of '64 turned into the Reagan landslide of '84.

	18-11-2004 20:41									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

See... Arrian is sane.

What's wrong with Kansas?

	18-11-2004 20:42									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: He probably means that liberals should try to create their own ideological infrastructure - think tanks, radio stations, and so forth, so they have more control over the parameters of the debate.

Make it so. That's a long-term project, and I say go for it. Meanwhile, in the short-term, put up some more moderate candidates. Do both at once.

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 20:43									#23
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It's not nuked to the bedrock yet?

	18-11-2004 20:44									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Negative, the majority is only stupid when they disagree with you. Funny how that works.

Yeah . . . . . .

I guess I'm making too big of a deal when the majority could care less about the principle of equal rights protection, or wanting to wave the flag from a historical secession movement that could have destroyed the country that you and others claim to be so patriotically fond of today.

	18-11-2004 20:46									#25
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Liberals already have their own think tanks. They are called universities, where liberal ideas predominate because people are clever and won't fall for Bush style conservatism.

Your suggestion won't work as too many people have been taught simply to discount anything a liberal says as lies without subjecting it to any real test.

That's the difference between us and them. We're rational, sometimes.

	18-11-2004 20:51									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Your suggestion won't work as too many people have been taught simply to discount anything a liberal says as lies without subjecting it to any real test.

Defeatist line of thought, and thus useless.

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 20:56									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Make it so. That's a long-term project, and I say go for it. Meanwhile, in the short-term, put up some more moderate candidates. Do both at once.

Hey, I supported a guy to the right of Kerry on most issues in the primaries. It's just that the Democratic Party called him an unelectable radical for having the guts to say what he believes, and for putting the democratic agenda ahead of the Democratic agenda.

	18-11-2004 21:04									#28
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quote: Hey, I supported a guy to the right of Kerry on most issues in the primaries.

Who's that?

	18-11-2004 21:04									#29
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Howard Dean.

	18-11-2004 21:05									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Howard Dean.

Howard Dean to the RIGHT of Kerry?



yeah right