19-11-2004 19:55									#1
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Hey there

Back when i played civ2 the "we love the ? day" had some very specific results: under a monarchy, your roads would yield another trade arrow, under a repuplic, corruption would be eliminated, and under a democracy (typo?) your cities would grow one "Level" every turn, until they didn't have enough food to do so.

But in civ3 i'm a little confused as to what the effect really is??? anyone??


oh, and another thing. The civilopedia mentions that your armies will be better fighters after the contruction of millitary academy. In what way???

AP

	19-11-2004 21:11									#2
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I think the only result is that corruption on shields (and shields alone) is reduced.

Greetz

	19-11-2004 21:57									#3
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Attack bonus with:
Neither Pentagon nor Military Tradition: (6+6+6)/6 = +3
Pentagon only: (6+6+6+6)/6 = +4
Military Tradition only: (6+6+6)/4 = +4 (rounded down)
Both Pentagon and Military Tradition: (6+6+6+6)/4 = +6

	20-11-2004 15:51									#4
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Thank you guys :-)

AP

	22-11-2004 18:49									#5
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FYI: Armies also have a defense bonus calculated the same way, but with the units' defense value.

	24-11-2004 13:22									#6
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I think I liked the old way better.

	24-11-2004 15:05									#7
	Re: We love the ? day Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ariano_paluda Back when i played civ2 the "we love the ? day" had some very specific results: under a monarchy, your roads would yield another trade arrow, under a repuplic, corruption would be eliminated, and under a democracy (typo?) your cities would grow one "Level" every turn, until they didn't have enough food to do so.

To be more precise, the effect of WLTKD in civ2 was to bring your city production (food/shield/trade) as if under the next above government. I don't remember corruption being affected by WLTKD.
WLTKD in Despotism (the city where you build the HG, f.i.) let your city produce as under Monarchy: no penalty for 3+ prod, but no extra trade arrow.
Monarchy, Fanatism & Communism, as in Republic: the extra trade arrow.
Republic... not sure. Prod is same as under Democracy, so I think it's also +1 size / turn.
Democracy, as you said, +1 size / turn.

	24-11-2004 19:12									#8
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WLT_D for dem/rep was a Civ2 exploit. It gave you too much power too fast. The human player would simply jack up luxuries to the max for a few turns and viola! Instant growth. Yes, the AI could grow too but it tended to be happenstance. They'd never max out the luxury rate like the human would.

	26-11-2004 17:24									#9
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That makes sense...maybe it was because of that little trick that i kept winning back in the old civ2 days :-) If i get a little depressed over losing at monarch, i'll just switch on my old pentium 133 and play civ2 for a while ;-)

wrt to that army again...where is it those numbers come from??? those three 6?? it's one for each unit, that's obvious, but why 6. And the attack bonus is it simply added to the units attack strength? or how is it working?? because if thats the case, a mere warrior could be awesome in an army...ancient army that is..

have a nice weekend

AP

	26-11-2004 23:29									#10
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The 6 is what you get for Cavs, it would some other value for some other unit.

Yes any army is awesome. I have been forced to use a sword army and sometimes mixed with a spear. It will crush the units it will encounter in that era.

This is why many bemoan armies, they are very srong and the AI essentially does not use them. I agree for levels up to Demi. After that, I find them to be an offsetting force. You can win deity without them, but it would make sid so much more tedious and it is already quite tedious.

	29-11-2004 09:42									#11
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Besides reducing waste it also halves the chance of that city culture flipping to another civilization.

	29-11-2004 21:31									#12
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I find it very difficult to win without armies. I am playing at Emperor level and just won playing the Ottomans. The Sipahi armies are just overwhelming. They can even take out fortified infantry. I wonder why the AI doesn't use armies. Does it at higher levels? I have played very few games in which the AI uses armies even though I know that they got MGLs.

	29-11-2004 21:46									#13
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The AI will on a rare occasion make an army. but it is not common. I cannot even remember the last one I saw. The level does not matter, I have played all the levels.

	29-11-2004 22:41									#14
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator WLT_D for dem/rep was a Civ2 exploit. It gave you too much power too fast. The human player would simply jack up luxuries to the max for a few turns and viola! Instant growth. Yes, the AI could grow too but it tended to be happenstance. They'd never max out the luxury rate like the human would.

And the SMAC equalivents were:

Early Game :

1. Democracy + Planned + Children's Creche (for everyone except Morgon & Yang)

2. Children's Creche + Democracy (Morgon : pointless in bases without Hab Complexes ) or Planned (Yang) + WLT_D

Mid Game :

3. Cloning Vacts Secret Project.

Late Game :

4. Also one of the future socity's + either Democracy or Planned + Children's Creche.

	30-11-2004 20:55									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dry To be more precise, the effect of WLTKD in civ2 was to bring your city production (food/shield/trade) as if under the next above government. I don't remember corruption being affected by WLTKD.

the main thing for democacy was the fact that you didn't experience corruption, and when you have WLTKD in a republic city your corruption was eliminated. It's 6 months since i last played civ2, but i'm pretty sure i'm right here..

armies (once more)

if i'm understand you correctly, this means that the "formula" would be something like this:

(a+a+a)/a=x , where a is the attack strength of a given unit, and x is the bonus?

then when you get millitary academy the a you divide with is reduced by one third??

on a sidenote:

i'm having a hard time coping with the random number generator...yesterday my fortified musketmen in barricades all lost to attacking ancient cavalry, but my single musketman defender in a city beat 12 cavalry the same turn without losing a single health bar....

how often do you get a MGL when you're millitaristic (statistically??)

AP

	01-12-2004 01:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by ariano_paluda the main thing for democacy was the fact that you didn't experience corruption, and when you have WLTKD in a republic city your corruption was eliminated. It's 6 months since i last played civ2, but i'm pretty sure i'm right here..

Nope. WLTKD did not affect corruption or waste in Civ2, whereas in Civ3, WLTKD affects only waste.

quote: armies (once more) if i'm understand you correctly, this means that the "formula" would be something like this: (a+a+a)/a=x , where a is the attack strength of a given unit, and x is the bonus? then when you get millitary academy the a you divide with is reduced by one third??

No again. The army formula for the attack/defense bonus is:

Sum of all units' attack/defense strengths in the army divided by either 6 (no Military Academy) or 4 (with Military Academy).

quote: how often do you get a MGL when you're millitaristic (statistically??) AP

This is totally dependent on how much fighting you do. Only elite units winning a battle have a chance to generate an MGL and you can only get elite units by having a veteran win in battle. Militaristic civs promote units more often then non-mil civs, but this has no effect on MGL generation. The odds of getting an MGL from a victorious elite attack are 1 in 16 without the Heroic Epic and 1 in 12 with the Heroic Epic. I believe the odds are halved if the elite unit wins a defensive battle (1 in 32 and 1 in 24).

	01-12-2004 16:44									#17
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quote: Originally posted by ariano_paluda (a+a+a)/a=x , where a is the attack strength of a given unit, and x is the bonus? then when you get millitary academy the a you divide with is reduced by one third??

It is as Vmxa1 & Gunk explained, but maybe some examples make it more clear:

No Academy, an army of:
1 Knight:
att: 4 + (4)/6 = 4.6667, and 4 hit points (veteran)
def: 3 + (3)/6 = 3.5

2 Med Infs:
att: 4 + (4+4)/6 = 5.3333, and 8 hit points
def: 2 + (2+2)/6 = 2.6667

3 swordmen:
att: 3 + (3+3+3)/6 = 4.5, and 12 hit points
def: 2 + (2+2+2) = 3

Academy:
2 Sipahi:
att: 8 + (8+8)/4 = 12

4 tanks:
att: 16 + (16+16+16+16)/4 = 32

EDIT: def of MI is 2, not 3, iirc

	01-12-2004 16:55									#18
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And mixed armies:
1 horseman + 1 knight + 1 cav:
first, the Cav attacks: 6 + (2+4+6)/6 = 8
then the Knight: 4 + (2+4+6)/6 = 6
last, the Horseman: 2 + (2+4+6)/6 = 4

	06-12-2004 19:45									#19
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I understood it when reading gunkulators most recent post. But thanks anyway.

Yesterday i tried a civ2 game again, and it seems that you were right anyway gunkulator...i'm feeling a little humbled right now....but thats okay

AP