01-12-2004 00:13									#31
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It's just you and everyone else who has not installed the latest patch (or at least 1.15 or later).

	01-12-2004 00:59									#32
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Isn't #1 contradicting #3? If you read carefully, Sir Pleb doesn't claim the FP is useless, it's just not as powerful as he expected. But that's because he was used to the way it worked before the 1.15 patch. Take it from the corruption geek: whoever doesn't build the FP is making a huge mistake. And pvzh is right: It's much better than a University because it affects not only the FP city and the surrounding cities, but all your cities.

#1 is not contradicting as much as it is not clear.

I maintain that the increase OCN is of less import if you play on a huge map with a commercial trait civ.

This is due to the idea that I am not all that interested in empire wide corruption savings. I am interested in reduction in a few cities and the FP does not do all that much in that regard.

What I am talking about is, I want to make as many troops as I can and they will be more and more shield demanding. So if you give me a slight reduction in a couple of surrounding cities and a bit more in the FP city, I just do not care about it. I would rather the city that could eventually build the FP make units for now. Later I may find an opportunity to do it, maybe even use an MGL.

I actually would rather have another army than the FP in the middle ages.

I do not care that I shaved off some percentage of corruption empire wide. Hardly any of my cities will be able to build calv or later units with this boost.

I will still be forced to use a handful of cities and maybe the FP city and not much more.
I am fighting civs with standing armies in the hundreds and they will be able to replace loses very much faster than me. I need lots of units to garrison newly conquered cities, especially if I cannot get settlers to that area right away.

Even more if I elected to stay in Monarchy. Now if you are playing the game at Monarch or lower, have at it. It still does not matter, it only makes your victory more pleasing. Do as you will. It is at emperor or demi I would tend to have a concern for the FP.

This is because the reduced empire wide corruption will help be with research and funding projects. Those are not important at other levels to me.

Lower levels, you do not need more research power and at higher levels it will probably not be enough to offset the AI. You will need more cities to do that.

That is my perspective, nothing else.

	01-12-2004 01:20									#33
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quote: I maintain that the increase OCN is of less import if you play on a huge map with a commercial trait civ.

Check out Sir Pleb's Sid-level Iroquois empire on a huge map (link above). Does that sound like the type of game where the FP does not matter to you? He gets about 10% more gold and 10% more shields from the FP (+50gpt and +32spt). How can you argue that a University would do more for him?

With the crazy power of Armies in C3C, I'm not saying that you should sacrifice a leader for the FP, but you should definitely build it.

	01-12-2004 01:46									#34
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Well I followed the game while it was being played. Like I said 32 shields or more likely a lot less shields at the point in time most will be making it sounds great. It would be if you got them in one or two or even three cities.

Spread out over a great empire it will not save one turn on that next build in most cases.

I am not sure what a university has to do with anything. I am not building a uni instead of an FP, that would be crazy.

	01-12-2004 01:53									#35
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Well, you did say above that you were not sure you agreed with the fact that the FP is better than a University.

In a large empire, a boost of even a couple shields will be enough to shave a turn off the unit build time in several cities. That's in addition to the extra gold per turn you get.

Another way to look at the FP: Do you hear anyone complaining that the Wall street is not worth building? It gives a maximum of +50gpt (no shields), and costs 50% more than the FP.

	01-12-2004 01:57									#36
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Actually you would not even face the choice of a uni or an FP. You would have built the FP before you even had the ability to build a uni.

When I said I "may" not even build one, I was being a bit loose. I really meant that when I first get the option, I will not be in a position to do it at that time.

It is true that I have forgotten that I did not build it a few times. but it was not a strategic choice, just an error or old mans disease.

Again this is really only at Sid. If I am playing Emperor, I will being looking to get it up quickly.

My point is that I do not see it as a matter of life and death and I sure do not see sweating its precise location. I will make a judgement based on experience, not the math. This may mean I am not getting it optimally placed, but surely you do not argue that matters in an SP game?

If it is MP or GOTM, then you have a reason the be thoughtful.

	01-12-2004 01:59									#37
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I guess what I am saying is that after C3C, I do not see the need to go nuts over the placement of the FP, so sue me.

	01-12-2004 15:10									#38
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Isn't #1 contradicting #3? If you read carefully, Sir Pleb doesn't claim the FP is useless, it's just not as powerful as he expected. But that's because he was used to the way it worked before the 1.15 patch. Take it from the corruption geek: whoever doesn't build the FP is making a huge mistake. And pvzh is right: It's much better than a University because it affects not only the FP city and the surrounding cities, but all your cities.

When it comes to corruption in Civ .... Alexman you're my man.

Perhaps I didn't elaborate clearly on my first point. I meant the FP was useless in comparison with how it used to work back in PtW, it was so efficient and powerful at reducing corruption acting as a second capital then. Now it's mostly useful for raising the optimum number of cities and only indirectly reducing corruption (not directly as before).

Anyways, I still build it in every game but I certainly don't use a MGL for that. Given the way they've beefed up the Armies in C3C that would be a complete waste. But I would certainly use a SGL for that purpose because, to my best knowledge, the SGL's special ability of increasing tech output by 10% in the following 20 turns is broken, unless I'm mistaken. So using it to build the FP makes sense, unless you have a GW you are after, of course. But in the higher levels of game play I seriously doubt you will have the tech lead, so it is highly unlikely to pop a SGL at any time above Emperor IMHO.

We were having this same discussion in the Spanish forum of Poly a month ago.

	02-12-2004 02:42									#39
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well I followed the game while it was being played. Like I said 32 shields or more likely a lot less shields at the point in time most will be making it sounds great. It would be if you got them in one or two or even three cities. Spread out over a great empire it will not save one turn on that next build in most cases. I am not sure what a university has to do with anything. I am not building a uni instead of an FP, that would be crazy.

Actually, on average an increase of 32 shields in one city will increase less the actual production of things (as in how many units you get every 50 turns say) than spread out over different cities...
The bigger the production, the bigger the chance for shields being wasted (not decreasing the number of turns)


think about it for a while, and if you still dont agree, then we can discuss it...

	02-12-2004 02:55									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Lul Thyme Actually, on average an increase of 32 shields in one city will increase less the actual production of things (as in how many units you get every 50 turns say) than spread out over different cities... The bigger the production, the bigger the chance for shields being wasted (not decreasing the number of turns)

You are forgetting the crucial thing here. The 32 shields in a developed city will multiply, possibly double. Getting 1-turn instead of 2-turn Tanks (or whatever that unit is you need) is quite the boon. Same goes for speeding up wonder production (great and small ones alike). 32 shields spread throughout the empire don't do that, as they often hit cities that aren't developed enough to profit.

	02-12-2004 04:05									#41
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That is what I was talking about. A shield here or there over bunch of cities is not what I want. In that type of a game.

Now 10-20 more shields in the right city could make a difference of 1 turn on some builds. It could let me get that small wonder that I want in time to be useful. I have to make up the massive cost bonus the AI gets.

It pays a lot less in shileds for it units/wonders. It does not have to care about getting the best out of the city. You see then with several tiles out of production due to pollution and they have no workers to clear it. They still can built the unit very fast.

	04-12-2004 06:59									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 You are forgetting the crucial thing here. The 32 shields in a developed city will multiply, possibly double. Getting 1-turn instead of 2-turn Tanks (or whatever that unit is you need) is quite the boon. Same goes for speeding up wonder production (great and small ones alike). 32 shields spread throughout the empire don't do that, as they often hit cities that aren't developed enough to profit.

I am nor forgetting this and I still stand by my statement, which was that an increase of 32 shields spread out over a lot of cities, increases the total productivity (32-number of shield wasted by rounding) than if it is one city.

Since both of you disagree, I will write it out:

Imagine 32 cities with 1 shield producting items of variable shield (say cost from 50 to 100).
Then an increase of one shield in each, will double their production (so the production of the whole 32 cities) and will waste only 1 shield per thing build half the time (when the cost is odd).

Imagine 1 city with x production building items of variable shield, and it gets an increase of 32 shields, of those 32 shields on average, a lot more than 1/2 per item will be wasted....

So assuming both cases were building as fast (say the one city was building one item every x turn, and the 32 cities were building each every 32x turn) then ON AVERAGE, the 32 cities will be building faster than the one city after the 32 shield boost.

I know this is a slight threadjack, but vxma (who I think has great ideas, btw) was basically wrong in his statement that an fixed increase of shield in one city increases more production than distributed over a lot of cities.


If you still dont understand, I can give the general formulae for the probability of wasting shields and the proof..., or you can try building an example (dont forget I said on AVERAGE, so try to build a typical example, just random numbers) to convince yourself...

	04-12-2004 07:06									#43
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Now if you want to argue that in actual play, it is more important to have a few good cities, than pretty good all around cities, I am not arguing.
But this is subjective, and is not what I was talking about.

	04-12-2004 12:10									#44
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You see, the problem is, only a small empire might profit better from an overall addition to production, because only a small empire has good enough infrastructure to use all those added shields. But each war, or colonization, gives you cities that will have hardly any use for this one shield, making it mean a lot less. At the same time, adding 32 shields to a low-corruption, high-industry city will give you a strong, constant boost (more like 64 shields, after Industrialization...). Also, those shields spread out in the empire only really help with relatively cheap improvements/units. If I have to build something expensive, then sorry, but I want 32 shields, not 1. Now tell me, how exactly does the 1 shield in outlying areas help build a great wonder in one city?

	05-12-2004 01:37									#45
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guys... it's actually not an option

given that fp might increase shield prod'n by (say) 32 shields, we don't get to make a choice about where those extra shields appear

yes, 32 shields in one city works best in some games
yes, 32 cities with one extra shield in each adds up to a lower overall probability of wasted shields

but... it just don't matter because that's not the choice you're making

the choice is simply
a) build fp ==> increase in shield production (in some cities)
b) don't build ==> no increase in production (but less time spent building wonders that you maybe don't need)

the big reason why 32 shields in one city would be a good thing is that the effect of marketplaces, factories &c is applied after calculating corruption. so, like modo says,
32 shields + 1 factory = 64 shields = good

but it's really a moot point because it's not a decision we get the opportunity to make

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I maintain that the increase OCN is of less import if you play on a huge map with a commercial trait civ. This is due to the idea that I am not all that interested in empire wide corruption savings. I am interested in reduction in a few cities and the FP does not do all that much in that regard.

did someone say metagame..?
...nooOOOOoooOOOOooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by choosing a comm. civ you buy your way out of the fp debate
it's like picking a militaristic civ in order to play the peacenik...
being militaristic you can afford to run down the defence budget because the troops you do build are stronger - if you get hit with a sneak attack you can still respond quickly

sorry but i'm a mil/rel fan ... it's all about hearts & minds you know

	05-12-2004 02:06									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 You see, the problem is, only a small empire might profit better from an overall addition to production, because only a small empire has good enough infrastructure to use all those added shields. But each war, or colonization, gives you cities that will have hardly any use for this one shield, making it mean a lot less. At the same time, adding 32 shields to a low-corruption, high-industry city will give you a strong, constant boost (more like 64 shields, after Industrialization...). Also, those shields spread out in the empire only really help with relatively cheap improvements/units. If I have to build something expensive, then sorry, but I want 32 shields, not 1. Now tell me, how exactly does the 1 shield in outlying areas help build a great wonder in one city?

I said many times that I wasnt arguing about the fact that in many particular cases, it is better to get an increase in one city than in many city.

But your (and vxma's ) earlier claim, that you get more things produced if the increase is in one city is wrong.

	05-12-2004 02:18									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Lul Thyme But your (and vxma's ) earlier claim, that you get more things produced if the increase is in one city is wrong.

I definately get more things produced with 32 shields that become 64 shields (doubled in a developed city), than with 32 shields that stay 32 shields. Twice as many things "on average".

And you are wrong about this not being an option, although I admit it often happens at a point, when the game is already won. Namely, you can take someone's capital, which is far away an produces 1 uncorrupted shield, then rush the FP, to get this single city up and running. Maybe you won't get 32 shields, but my guess is, it won't be far from it (you often get to keep the Factory AI has built).

	05-12-2004 23:18									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I definately get more things produced with 32 shields that become 64 shields (doubled in a developed city), than with 32 shields that stay 32 shields. Twice as many things "on average". And you are wrong about this not being an option, although I admit it often happens at a point, when the game is already won. Namely, you can take someone's capital, which is far away an produces 1 uncorrupted shield, then rush the FP, to get this single city up and running. Maybe you won't get 32 shields, but my guess is, it won't be far from it (you often get to keep the Factory AI has built).

Yes but I never claimed any of the two statements....
You're arguing the strawman...
Anyway this is drifting abit off topic

	06-12-2004 00:00									#49
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'kay...

so, some of us still think fp IS worth building

next question...

does anyone have some general thoughts on timing?

personally i want the thing up and running asap but it seems some people don't bother with it until something like industrial ages
i seem to find lately that if i don't have fp up and running before gunpowder, i'm in trouble - the ai starts taking the lead in production and i get swamped

if i try to build too early, though, my glorious empire has not quite taken shape and i end up missing out on the choice locations

otoh if i can fight a coupla wars, secure strat. resources and build fp before gunpowder... then i've got it beat

any thoughts...

	06-12-2004 00:28									#50
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Under a non-Commie govt:

Basically, building the FP anywhere will reduce corruption in the Palace core area and actually expand the core area in much the same way that building Court Houses and Police Stations and having a WLTPD [shields only] does.

What your deciding with the FP location is which area will become your second core and how large that core is. If the city that your FP is in is too high, the FP core becomes exactly one city. OTOH, placing the FP in a city that's already in the Palace core doesn't offer much in the way of further improvement.

Court Houses will still be needed in the FP centric area to keep the cities as core much more than the Palace centric area, and the FP centric area will also benifit more from Police Stations and being in a WLTPD [sheilds only] than most of the Palace centric cities.

This may be a reason why those that can't be bothered to build Court Houses [and rush them under a cash-rush govt] just place the FP next to the capital.

	06-12-2004 00:35									#51
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Under a Communist govt:

Corruption is communial, so you have exactly 1, 2, or 3 core cites.

1. Palace. Won't really need a Court House

2. Forbiden Palace. Will probably benifit from a CH + PS. Was probably built long before you went Commie.

3. SPHQ. Will probably benifit from a CH + PS. This can only be built by a Communist govt [but you can store shields for it like everything else], so what your really looking for is the city with the most near term potiential shield output that's inside your empire that's not the P nor FP. (An Iron Works city generally calls out for the SPHQ.) But if there's no IW city, there's still probably a city or two that's practiclly begging for it.

All the non-core cities will greately benifit from a CH and PS if your empire is large enough. If your empire isn't currently, I sugest you build lots of units and enlarge it militarily. There's not much point in being a peaceful communist.

	06-12-2004 00:58									#52
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How do I determine which cities are considered to be Palace-centric core?

	06-12-2004 01:00									#53
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right
i guess sphq relates much better to an ironworks city in terms of timing
if i sit around waiting to discover coal, it's just way too late for me to be building fp

don't really agree with the courthouse/police station thing but
1) who's got time for building ch so early in the game - i'm normally flat out doing other stuff
i really don't want to stop and build 15 courthouses until maybe after my early medieaval wars
2) police stations are just too late in the game for me
let's face it, by the time i'm able to build them, i'm generally suffering renal failure from the excessive levels of caf & nicotine
but you might be right...
i'll get aroung to playing large map myself one year

	06-12-2004 01:33									#54
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Under a Communist govt: Corruption is communial, so you have exactly 1, 2, or 3 core cites. 1. Palace. Won't really need a Court House

Are you sure? Since every Courthouse reduces corruption in Communism, wouldn't it be better to put one in every city, including the one with Palace?

	06-12-2004 21:39									#55
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Core cities are the most productive cities in terms of trade and/or sheilds after corruption affects.

Pre FP, those are all palace centric under non-commie govt, but note that this natural zone will expand somewhat once the FP is built.

The rules of thumbs I use is if I can quickly build the FP without a leader with zero or one corruption fighting mechnisms, it's probably too close and also if the FP would take forever to build without a leader even with both a Court House and a WLTPD, it's probably too far away.

Generally if your empire includes two large land masses, the Palace should be on one land mass and the FP on the other.

For one land mass, it's more complex, but if there's some really unproductive land in the middle of your empire [a large desert when NOT playing an agriculture civ], having the Palace and FP on opposite sides of that chasm may be a good placement.

There are also cases where the Palace itself should be moved, in which case it's generally best to first build the FP near the Palace and then build the Palace at the new location, paricularly when you end up conquering your neighbors larger and more productive land.

quote: Originally posted by Barinthus How do I determine which cities are considered to be Palace-centric core?

	06-12-2004 21:55									#56
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quote: Originally posted by lebensraum right i guess sphq relates much better to an ironworks city in terms of timing if i sit around waiting to discover coal, it's just way too late for me to be building fp don't really agree with the courthouse/police station thing but 1) who's got time for building ch so early in the game - i'm normally flat out doing other stuff i really don't want to stop and build 15 courthouses until maybe after my early medieaval wars 2) police stations are just too late in the game for me let's face it, by the time i'm able to build them, i'm generally suffering renal failure from the excessive levels of caf & nicotine but you might be right... i'll get aroung to playing large map myself one year

2. The point of Police Stations for non-commie is that they arrive about the time that it becomes difficult to keep cities in WLTPD on higher difficulty levels, and so they are really maintaigning the same low percentage of shield corruption for your metro that it enjoyed while stuck at size 12 with a CH and in a WLTPD. Built across the board in the core, it also greatly improves both taxes and science. Built just outside the core, it enlarges the core.

1. That's why there's cash rushing once the forests are chopped. The Court Houses will noticably save turns off of most structures that you pay full price for and also the more expensive military units like Knights. And if you don't have the cash for rushing and don't want to slow down tech, the Court Houses can be phased in where advengious. This generally amounts to cities just outside the edge of the core zone first building the Court Houses while the core does build the military units, and then swaping.

I tend to use 45 - 67% corruption as my guide to which cities need the Court Houses the fastest.

	12-12-2004 14:40									#57
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I'll weigh into this debate, since I've studied alexman's corruption analysis in quite some detail over the last year.

My conclusion: generally, build the FP as soon as you can, in a location that is close enough to the Palace to enable you to build it in (say) 20 turns or less. This will generally be a town that is only 2 or 3 towns from your capital. The ideal location may well be slightly further away, but unless you have an MGL handy to rush it immediately, the additional time it will take to build will represent an opportunity cost that is likely to exceed the additional long-term benefit of finding the "ideal" location.

The effects of reduced corruption and waste will be significant, particularly in large empires. If you build it much further away from your Palace (particularly at higher difficulty levels), the high rank of the surrounding cities will kill any benefits you will get from reduced distance corruptiion.

I will often set-up my planned FP city with a Granary, Courthouse and Aqueduct (if necessary) to ensure maximum population and speed of build. These may be rush-built.

As for the argument regarding the marginal benefit of extra shields, I think some of you are not seeing the forest for the trees here. Firstly, increased shield production is only one benefit of the FP. the greater benefit IMHO is the reduced corruption, which in overall percentage terms will be significant, and will provide you with lots more cash for research and trade.

Secondly, it is certainly true that there are different benchmark shield production numbers for various units, above which you may waste shields. For example, an Infantry unit at 90 shields takes 3 turns if you have 30 shields production, and only 2 turns if you have 45 shields. If you have 44 shields, it still takes 3 turns and you waste 42 shields on the 3rd turn. This is from where the argument for the "useless" production increase of the FP stems. However, if we are micromanaging our empire properly, then in the case where the FP increases our net production from 30 shields to 33 shields, we should be re-irrigating some of our mined tiles to reduce shield production back to 30 shields, which increases the food surplus and hence improves our growth rate, which in turn increases commerce more quickly. So the shield production benefit of the FP, in cases where it cannot be efficiently used to reduced production times, can be re-worked into greater commerce.

Which leads me back to the most important Civ3 maxim....you can never have too many Workers!

	12-12-2004 23:57									#58
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I don't have a problem with your perspective, except the example.
If you talk about a middle age unit, then fine. Irrigate to grow, could make sense.

If you talk about infantry units, it is beyond the growth concern. This city is already at 12. Now do I have a hospital here, probably not.

If I have infantry, I am not real concerned about research, just troops and support for them. Research is not an issue for me, unless I am at demi where it is a choice. Below that level at that stage, I already have the lead. Above demi, I probably will not try to get the lead.

	13-12-2004 20:18									#59
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True.....I agree it's possibly a bad example, but the principle is still correct and very applicable to the Middle Ages when you have just come out into a non-despotic government and need to grow quickly while maintaining a decent production rate. Having your FP up can make a substantial difference at this time.

	23-12-2004 04:33									#60
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vmxa1, I think you might be missing something useful: The benefit in usable shield production is NOT spread around across the empire... it will tend to show up in crap cities as +1, but in larger cities that have significant shield production but high waste, you may get as many as 5 or more shields per turn 'back', which can often be more than enough to shave turns off of unit builds.

Can we say 28spt -> 30spt? Or even better, 28spt -> 34spt?