19-11-2004 23:30									#1
	Forbidden Palace Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Actually FP placement. I have found some old threads from earlier C3C versions where FP was broken, but now it works.

I have not seem much recent conversation on this and I think that it is an important strategy factor in the game. Can people share their thoughts about FP placement?

I usually like to put my FP a fair distance away from the Palace in order to maximize the positive influence of each. I frequently use this as a decision factor when I am planning out my expansion. I don't want the FP to be stuck in the middle of deserts but rather in a grassland/hill region.

	19-11-2004 23:41									#2
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I build it ASAP in any high Shield output city, like any other Wonder. This is because it's reduction in Corruption due to number of cities is far more important than it's reduction due to distance from the capital (and I typically have a rather dense empire). At least that's my understanding.

	20-11-2004 00:45									#3
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I think Dominae is correct. I have tried using in various longer distances and it seems to do very little for any of the adjacent towns.

I suspect that as I waited to put it farther out, I ran into the issue being way beyond the OCN.

I just do not know if it has much merit on a domination type game on large or huge maps. I suspect you could even skip it for those games.

If I get it up fairly soon after getting to the requisite city count and not real far from home, it was of some value.

	20-11-2004 00:46									#4
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I wouldn't say any high shield output city.
It's always best to build it in a city that it closer to the center of your empire than your Palace.

Also, the corruption reduction due to numer of cities is not far more important than the distance corruption reduction - it's just that delaying the FP build to get the ideal location is not worth the shields and income lost from not getting it up as soon as possible.

	20-11-2004 01:19									#5
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So maybe 2-3 cities distant from the capitol? I'm doing CxxCxxC pretty much. I'll certainly be able to build it a lot sooner this way than if I put it out in a fringe city.

	20-11-2004 23:31									#6
	Re: Forbidden Palace placement Support Apolyton

I like to wait until Steam Power to see where all the coal is located. If any location can build Iron Works thats where I place mine. Other wise, I usually don't build it unless I really need it. For instance, I'm on another large continent far from my shores and it has lots of resources on it then I'll build it.

	21-11-2004 00:04									#7
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Conquests latest patch, what your really looking for is a location far enough from your palace for the decreased distance production in the FP to matter, but not so far out that even with the increased OCN, the nearby cities aren't horriably corrupt from the city number formula.

Very good locations for this just happen to be around the limit of actually building it manually [with a Court House and a WLTPD at the intended destination.]

	21-11-2004 18:58									#8
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at the moment, i find the whole character of my early warfare is being determined by FP placement

i try to be as neighbourly as possible about it...
i do my best to build FP in the closest neighbouring capital, while my neighbours do their utmost to provide me with a leader
it's a simple, graceful solution and everyone comes out a winner

BUT!...it depends very much on difficulty level

@ Grog Level: This works perfectly
@ Orange Soda Level: Corruption due to distance gets too much and i have to build anywhere i can. Or to put it another way - Dominae was right (...uerrrgh)

Problem: If i want a really chioce spot for the FP, i have to annex a neighbour completely.
this really gets in the way of effective Oscillating War. that means no gradual pruning, no profitable peace treaties &c
So i can wipe out one guy entirely and have two strong productive cores or i can settle for a less than perfect FP placement and take a bite out of every civ i can get to
god.. i'm so conflicted

Basically, i reckon the FP placement decision
a) depends on difficulty
b) has a huge effect on early warfare

Oh yeah...Hi everyone - luv ya work!

	24-11-2004 19:30									#9
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Conquests latest patch, what your really looking for is a location far enough from your palace for the decreased distance production in the FP to matter, but not so far out that even with the increased OCN, the nearby cities aren't horriably corrupt from the city number formula. Very good locations for this just happen to be around the limit of actually building it manually [with a Court House and a WLTPD at the intended destination.]

Has anyone done any experiments or calculations to determine the optimum distance?

	24-11-2004 20:24									#10
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I think so, but I can't remember where. In any case there's no 'optimum' distance; it's highly dependent on the situation (not to mention map size and difficulty level).

EDIT: Oh, and traits.

	24-11-2004 22:47									#11
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I'd say there is an optimum corruption level for the intended FP to have.
With trade connection, courthouse, and WLTPD :
If a Monarchy / Republic : around 50%
If still a Despont : 60 - 67%.
If a Democracy: Shouldn't be much more than 40%.

These numbers should post FP construction result in two core areas, the bigger around around your Palace [which thanks to increased OCN is now bigger than pre-FP], and the smaller one around the FP, and no city in between the Palace and FP being particularly unproductive with a Court House. The really unproductive cities will be those on the far side of the empire from the FP.

	24-11-2004 23:21									#12
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If I have to build it the hard way (and I often do, not using leader farming), it's usually fairly close to the capital. I only build it farther away if I have a MGL to rush it and/or have acquired some prime real estate far from my capital. Usually speed dictates the choice - the sooner I get the FP, the better.

	25-11-2004 00:04									#13
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quote: @ Grog Level: This works perfectly @ Orange Soda Level: Corruption due to distance gets too much and i have to build anywhere i can. Or to put it another way - Dominae was right (...uerrrgh)

That's awesome! Grog level and Orange Soda level

I'd agree with your analysis, by the way: "perfect" placement typically requires taking a large bite out of a neighbor (a neighbor's capital is often a good distance away). This is easier to do on Monarch, both because the AI will have less troops and because corruption is harsher the higher up you go, so if you're actually building it (as opposed to leader rushing it), it's harder to build one at "optimal" distance.

-Arrian

	29-11-2004 00:36									#14
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Hail Flavius Xenophon!

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Has anyone done any experiments or calculations to determine the optimum distance?

Sticky, sticky question...
thought i'd throw up a few older threads on this

Everything you ever wanted to know about corruption
General Discussion of Corruption Calculations per City
(alexman)

FP+Palace placement (Archive)
(sabrewolf)

don't know that either of these quite answers the question, but there's nothing like a little hypertext to keep 'em guessing

i like the idea of having a mathematical model for FP placement. quantify the variables, define the boundary conditions and so on. but something tells me that's going to be one scary looking equation

maybe we could start with identifying some of the basic strategic assumptions..eg.
i) Palace Jump - are you planning to jump the palace later in the game
ii) Leaders - do you want to build it the hard way or not
iii) Geographic - what shape is your land mass, what is your empire going to look like when you're done
iv)If anybody reads this far... what about a Forbidden Palace Jump - ie build FP once in a non-optimal location, then later in the game, disband that city and rebuild FP somewhere more optimal

to me the basic question is still not so much "where do i put the FP" as "what effect does FP timing and location have on how and when i get to beat the *@^% out of someone"

Grog want Tank...WITH WINGS

	29-11-2004 23:46									#15
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Things I think are true and would like corrected if I am wrong:

I don't think that FP can be built a second time even if the first city is erased.

I don't think that a MGL can force build FP. Did this change in 1.22?

In the absence of a SGL to force build FP, it seems a trade off:
Quicker "core" build but less area effect from FP.
More distant slow build with greater effect.

Personally, I had been doing the later slow build. But that is why I asked the question. I just finished a nice Emperor domination win in the 1600s with 7000 points and used the close/quick FP.

I'm so confused.

	29-11-2004 23:50									#16
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Don't take this as fact, it is just my best guess. You can create an FP, if you have the required number of cities and no currently existing FP, regardless of how many you have previously built.

I think the FP is a valid structure for an MGL, as is a Palace.

Frankly I don't care much about the FP, it does so little, I just don't sweat it.

	30-11-2004 00:45									#17
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Vmxa1, lets put it this way. It does more than University of the same cost , and can be build much earlier.

	30-11-2004 01:15									#18
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Except if you are steamrolling over the AI right from the start. Then it's faster to build the units instead, go make them Elite, and only build (rush) the FP once you have an MGL to spare.

	30-11-2004 01:27									#19
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quote: Originally posted by pvzh Vmxa1, lets put it this way. It does more than University of the same cost , and can be build much earlier.

Not sure that I agree, but it I have not tested to see it it is true or false.

The reason I suggest that is that many of those cities should not have a university either. The one advantage a university has is that you need one to be able to use a research lab.

If the game proceeds that far and you build the Internet, you get the free lab. So in that scenario the university may do more than the FP.

The FP is useful, but if it has to be built from scratch, it will take a very long time in most cities that you select.

	30-11-2004 08:36									#20
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Not if you build second ring. It can easily be a 20-turn project or less. Building it afar does not have obvious or dramatic effects as it does not count as a new palace for OCN, only distance. IT does, however, increase your OCN and thus reduces corruption by like 10% across the empire or something. alexman's thread would have more specifics.

	30-11-2004 10:22									#21
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All I can tell you is I have beat the game on every level and often I do not bother to build one.

Now in the PTW version, it is huge. If you are using a Commerce civ, your OCN is quite large and you will already have enough cities going to make it not a priority to built it.

Playing deity or sid, I often do not even switch out of despot until late in the middle ages, just cannot afford the lost production.

What I am saying is not that the FP is able to give you a boost, only that I often do not want to stop to do it when it comes up. I am not concerned with a reduction in corruption (a small one) or an increase in the OCN. I am concerned with my current production in the core. I want units for war and settlers/workers.

I don't care about corruption in the cities that are coming, I care that they will increase my free support and take more land out of the AI's hands.

	30-11-2004 10:33									#22
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I certainly do not doubt either your ability or the unnecessaryness of the FP, but I think it can be useful often, anyway. I'm playing a PBEM in RoR as Macedon and recently finished the FP on the East side of the Aegean, and it has dramatically increased the productivity of my cities over there, making them further less dependent on units from the Athens area, which take an ordinate of time to get there on land and the logistics of trying to ship are not convenient.

	30-11-2004 12:21									#23
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quote: I don't think that FP can be built a second time even if the first city is erased. I don't think that a MGL can force build FP. Did this change in 1.22?

The Forbidden Palace can be rebuilt because it is a small wonder common to all Civs. Great Wonders cannot be, they are lost forever if destroyed with city.
Any small wonder can be rushed using a MGL (edit--ooops--) or SGL. Only a SGL can rush a Great Wonder. Both (MGL or SGL) can rush any other city improvement. Neither can rush units.



And in my case, I will only build the Fobidden Palace if there is a chance to build the Iron Works. Other wise it is not important to me.

	30-11-2004 21:02									#24
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Wow, people not building the FP. I'm surprised.

Sure, it's not what it once was (vanilla/PTW), but it still can be pretty powerful.

-Arrian

	30-11-2004 22:06									#25
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Oooooh. Glad I asked even though I look stupid doing so. Personally I like the FP enough to sacrifice a MGL to get it. When I plan my, er, expansion I like to look for fertile and productive areas where the FP would have good effect. Often they are too far away to build in a reasonable time frame.

I don't seem to have any problems with the AI civs offering me opportunities to make MGLs.

	30-11-2004 22:40									#26
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Sir Pleb in his classic: Sir Pleb Going For Sid (10th of May 2.004 C3C v1.15) carried a research into FP placement and it's effect on corruption:


Highlighted three conclusions

1) FP is virtually useless in C3C v.1.15
2) It doesn't really matter where you place it.
3) What's really important is to build it ASAP for the opportunity cost lost in raising the optimum number of cities in the game and thus reducing corruption indirectly.

At the bottom of page 10; link:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...4&page=10&pp=20

(EDIT. The link works fine in all my computers, )

Last edited by Drakan on 01-12-2004 at 15:06

	30-11-2004 22:45									#27
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I too often use a MGL to rush the FP. I consider that a good deal.

The trickier question, for me, is whether it's worth a SGL. FP for free right now, or insta-Leos (or any other valueable great wonder)? Probably insta-Leos.

-Arrian

	30-11-2004 22:48									#28
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The link gives me an error.

In any event, I'm not surprised. That's basically what Dominae is saying.

-Arrian

	30-11-2004 23:27									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Drakan Highlighted three conclusions 1) FP is virtually useless in C3C v.1.15 2) It doesn't really matter where you place it. 3) What's really important is to build it ASAP for the opportunity cost lost in raising the optimum number of cities in the game and thus reducing corruption indirectly.

Isn't #1 contradicting #3?

If you read carefully, Sir Pleb doesn't claim the FP is useless, it's just not as powerful as he expected. But that's because he was used to the way it worked before the 1.15 patch.

Take it from the corruption geek: whoever doesn't build the FP is making a huge mistake. And pvzh is right: It's much better than a University because it affects not only the FP city and the surrounding cities, but all your cities.

	01-12-2004 00:12									#30
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Is it just me or has anybody else noticed this too. I've notice that once you do build the FP corruption tends to go up in all other cities that are far from the Palace & the FP.