02-12-2004 09:05									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No sweat, good luck.

	02-12-2004 11:27									#32
	How far will YOU go to prove a point.:D Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Making sure the Preserve Random Seed Number is turned off is a good idea. Nothing like trying to prove a point becoming moot if your outcome stays virtually the same.

Lastly, I want to say this. When you sit at a game and constantly reload to get your desired outcome, you then know that you proved your point. My view that it is impossible to generate a MGL if you possess a SGL caused me to waste a week of playing the game normally if I had just let go and not cared whether or not what is possible. But be that as that may, I will say this from my experience, when you reload every day, for 7 days, for about an hour each day, and no matter how many time that elite units wins and you don't get the MGL, you finally come to realize that it ain't ever going to happen. I also wasted many hours to prove, to at least me, the other points.


The following test results were conducted during my gaming sessions way before this thread was posted.


Muad'Dib's results:

1) SGL---normally, on average, will take about a half hour of reloading. Longest time it took--3 separate 1 hour sessions of reloading. Shortest--well thats self explanatory and needs no further comment. This test also applies to multiple SGLs--if you really want to hold on to that many.

2) MGL--on average, about 6-8 reloads. Longest time--2 half hour sessions of reloading. Shortest--Duh!!!

3) SGL (while possessing the MGL)--First test was by accident. I was playing the Carthaginians in the Rise of Rome scenairo and forgot to use it (MGL). Did not realize my mistake until I clicked the end turn button. By dumb stupid luck, no reloading, the tech that I was getting next turn got me a SGL. I was surprised by this so naturally I held onto both until the next tech was due. This time I had to reload and after about 7 or 8 reloads (I can't really remember the exact number), Boom, a 2nd SGL to go with the 1st & the MGL. To see if this was just scenairo specific, I repeated this test in all the other scenairos and normal games. On average, test results--see #1 above.

4) MGL (while possessing the SGL)--the most controversial--I stopped testing after 7 days of reloading for 1 hour each of those days. Now let me say this, Vmxa1 could have a valid argument. It could still be possible. I mean I stopped after 7 days. Who's to say that it was just statisical anomaly and that maybe the 8th or 9th day would have bore fruit. But come on, really, after 7 days. When is enough, enough???

These are just my views based and certain experiences. Feel free to conduct your own tests. You have my blessing.

Last edited by Muad'Dib on 02-12-2004 at 11:33

	02-12-2004 11:43									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, I have some save games here for y'all, if you wanna look.

Playing the Germans on chieftan with raging barbarians to get elite units quickly.

The year is now 430 AD, and we obviously have a pretty serious lead on all fronts (it's chieftan!).

We have produced 3 Scientific Great Leaders. The first came from researching the republic, without reloading, just popped. I figured, hey, lets go for more, so the next SGL came with 2 reloads upon researching Theology. The last SGL came with 6 reloads upon researching Engineering.

There are elite troops massed at the Korean capital of Seoul, ready to attack. Unfortunately, this city is not defended very well (2 spearmen), so it took many many many reloads to produce any meaningful results.

With the following saved game, I attacked Seoul and took it with the elite units 25 times, or 50 victories without producing a Military Great Leader.

Attachment: attack with 3sgl.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	02-12-2004 11:47									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, next saved game. I used the 3 SGL's to rush Sun Tzu's and the Sistine Chapel and create a scientific age of discovery. I then attacked Seoul again. I got a Military Great Leader on the second reload, third attack. That seemed rather quick, so I reloaded again and didn't get an MGL for a surprising 14 reloads, on the 27th attack.

Attachment: attack without sgl.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	02-12-2004 11:49									#35
	Support Apolyton

This is the saved game with the MGL produced and Invention about to be researched. Just kept reloading until I got an SGL. I apologize for the big stack of barbarian horsemen. :O

Attachment: attack produced mgl.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	02-12-2004 11:55									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

OK, last one. Here is the save after the previous turn with an SGL produced by researching Invention. The MGL is still in the stack of units next to Seoul. It took 3 reloads.


If you guys wouldn't mind downloading the first game and plugging away at that thing for a while, I think we should have enough data to conclude that it's pretty much statistically impossible to get an MGL while holding an SGL. (Just attack and take Seoul, then reload) Unless, of course, one of us pops one out. I'm not sure how many victories we need to conclude that it's impossible. What do you guys think? I'm thinking 500 would be more than enough.

Attachment: attack produced mgl, then sgl.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	02-12-2004 11:58									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Well, I have some save games here for y'all, if you wanna look. Playing the Germans on chieftan with raging barbarians to get elite units quickly. The year is now 430 AD, and we obviously have a pretty serious lead on all fronts (it's chieftan!). We have produced 3 Scientific Great Leaders. The first came from researching the republic, without reloading, just popped. I figured, hey, lets go for more, so the next SGL came with 2 reloads upon researching Theology. The last SGL came with 6 reloads upon researching Engineering. There are elite troops massed at the Korean capital of Seoul, ready to attack. Unfortunately, this city is not defended very well (2 spearmen), so it took many many many reloads to produce any meaningful results. With the following saved game, I attacked Seoul and took it with the elite units 25 times, or 50 victories without producing a Military Great Leader.

So is what your saying above is that you possess 3 SGLs and the proceded to get a MGL???

Hmmm, If that's the case, I wonder if more than one SGL negates the limits impossed by the MGL.
Me thinks I smell a new test brewing.


Edit
Sorry, read the post wrong.

quote: With the following saved game, I attacked Seoul and took it with the elite units 25 times, or 50 victories without producing a Military Great Leader.

Hey, its 2:10AM and my eyes are tired from playing Pirates all day. God I love days off.

	02-12-2004 12:06									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

No, I didn't get an MGL while holding the 3 SGL's, I attacked and won a total of 50 times and got nothing.

P.S. OH NOOOO!

Attachment: massive uprising.jpg
This has been downloaded 73 time(s).

	02-12-2004 21:52									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Sounds pretty convincing. It is too bad they did not just give us the information in the manual or a readme.

	04-12-2004 14:25									#40
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Sounds pretty convincing. It is too bad they did not just give us the information in the manual or a readme.

Bah, no kidding. Nothing like having to learn the hard way.

	13-12-2004 18:58									#41
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by chuckdelicious I'm going to summarize great leader generation. Scientific Great Leader: Whenever you finish researching a tech that has not been previously researched by another civ, there is a chance that an SGL will appear. Military Great Leader: Whenever an elite unit is victorious in battle, there is a chance that an MGL will appear. This is contingent upon: 1. You do not currently possess a great leader of either type. 2. The elite unit has not already produced an MGL. If the unit has been upgraded since it produced an MGL, it may produce another. Note that there are no contingencies on getting an SGL. Also, chances vary according to a tribe's traits and the construction of the heroic epic.

You should add a point 3 there:
3. You cannot generate a leader by killing barbarians.

Which reminds me, is it possible to generate MGLs by any other means than land units battling each other? In most naval battles, a MGL would have to swim back to shore...

	13-12-2004 19:02									#42
	Put an end to popups!

Yep, land units only.

	13-12-2004 22:23									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've heard that if a marine gives a leader from a battle on a transport when it is full, the leader will just float in the ocean. I smell another test!!!

	14-12-2004 00:50									#44
	Increase Your PM Length

Hmm, I could have tested that yesterday. I was playing a Mod that makes archer units amphibious. I generated a leader attacking a city with such a unit, and the ship was full... but later in the battle, I got some of my guys killed and the leader fit onto the ship just fine.

-Arrian

	14-12-2004 02:47									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: I've heard that if a marine gives a leader from a battle on a transport when it is full, the leader will just float in the ocean. I smell another test!!!

Yes, this is true.

As for leader generation when you already have one, it's quite simple, really. chuckdelicious summarized it well: the only such restriction in GL generation is that you cannot get an MGL if you have any kind of GL. I thought we had settled this a long time ago.

	14-12-2004 02:57									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So did I, but someone dived right into the 'negative proof' concept



Proving something exist is piece of cake, just get hold of whatever you try to prove, many times you can even make it yourself (like breeding pink frogs )

Proving something *don't* exist is tougher, often it is downright logically impossible. Even if you showed that all known methods of making the color 'pink' would cause frogs DNA to implode, some bastard could still claim there were undiscovered ways of making 'pink' that would be harmless to frogs.

	14-12-2004 07:25									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Proving something *don't* exist is tougher, often it is downright logically impossible. Even if you showed that all known methods of making the color 'pink' would cause frogs DNA to implode, some bastard could still claim there were undiscovered ways of making 'pink' that would be harmless to frogs.

Prove it!